Historic Racing Today

[midgetman]

It could all be fun if someone had the balls to do it. Variety is the spice of life, it doesn't have to be the same every time. Even historic racing gets so blinking serious, remember having fun?,

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[Paul D]

OK, what about this for a handicapping approach if we want to even things up a bit with the 'open cheque book' brigade:

Run whatever fancy car you like, but all driver's have to present their latest tax return at signing on - for every grand over 20 that you earned last year, a tenth is added to each of your lap times! Earn 30 grand? Expect a second to be added on to each lap. Earn 100 grand, then you get eight seconds added on to each lap! Don't even bother turning up if you earn a quarter of a million!

Seriously though, some form of handicapping could work surely? The problem being, I suppose, that those that currently display the 'win at all costs' attitude would doubtless find some way of buying their way around the rules, much as they do now!

[morninggents]

Can't see that working, Paul. Those you are targeting will have armies of accountants working for them and a tax haven in some remote part of the world.

[Neil Duke]

It has been said before,but the gate price is far too high for club motorsport.
A few years ago,The Sun printed entry tickets for £1,there were great crowds at Brands,all the food stalls were open,& they were busy.
The offer ended,the price went back up,the crowd dropped off,& Mr Palmer couldn't care less.

[chunder]

I really don't think there is anything wrong with pricing. Club events are very cheap for what they are, it's a token gesture that is simply making a tiny profit for the circuit perhaps as so few people usually turn up to watch. That pays for security on the gate etc, the odd cleaner.

The reason crowds are massive at Goodwood and the Classic is promotion. But you are paying vast amounts to get in to those meetings in comparison to club meetings, and you are also paying for all sorts of stuff you might not necessarily want, bands, fairground rides etc.

PLus they are events that attract the best cars and drivers because they have established themselves for whatever reason, the Classic went away after Coys, struggled for species when it came back, then they just ramped up the price by a tenner, put on a few bands and people flocked in, the paying public these days are easily led and very unpredictable, they want to feel they attending something special even though they are really only attending an event where they could see the majority of those cars at any other historic meeting, just a few special ones wing it.

I have been lambasted by track promoters on other forums for daring to mention why that sports biggest meeting is 15 quid more to get in than a regular meeting. Where for a few years now no effort is made whatsoever to make it special, no bands, no fireworks, no effort at all, yet the hordes turn up regardless and hand over this extra admittance fee. Habit mainly. If you are paying that bit extra you want something more than an ice cream van and a burger bar you get every week.

At least in circuit racing if you pay a bit more the promoter of track DO make an extra effort. Until you get to the very top level like F1 MotoGP where you are simply paying to cover hosting fees largely. SO that extra 20 or 50 quid goes there.

[andy97]

I have never been (yet) but I understand that Oval racing is very popular with very good crowds. I think some racers even get start, or prize money too.

[midgetman]

Short, sharp races and plenty of them. Howard was right all those years ago, as he was about many things. He had an unerring nose for what the public want.

Everyone shouts "it's down to promotion." but you can't polish a turd, if something isn't a very good proposition then no amount of promotion will encourage crowds.

[retrognome]

A one hour race with compulsory driver change seems a reasonable compromise.

[chunder]

The top oval racing classes do get start money, although in this day and age I can't really imagine why this is still the case.

Most even mid-grid cars are multi ten thousand pound pieces of kit that require a very regular amount of maintenance to repair damage and keep them fresh and a lot of these cars are transported in 6 figure transporters that make a mockery of that driver being given money just to turn up and do his hobby

But it's always been that way, the promoters and drivers seem happy to run with it, so it continues for some ungodly reason!!

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by retrognome

A one hour race with compulsory driver change seems a reasonable compromise.

Yes, if as a spectator you fancy a snooze, grab some food, catch up on your social media....the hard core spectators I know really don't enjoy the long races. They like lots of starts (close racing) and quick finishes if the drivers spread out too far.

However, as a driver I say "sod the spectators, I'm paying to play I don't care if they come and watch or not".

Which is why the contribution to costs of the oval racers is important. The thinking is that the people calling the tune are actually paying the paper, in which case I'd race what people want to watch if they're paying me to do it, even in an exceedingly modest way.

[bauble]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Yes, if as a spectator you fancy a snooze, grab some food, catch up on your social media....the hard core spectators I know really don't enjoy the long races. They like lots of starts (close racing) and quick finishes if the drivers spread out too far.

However, as a driver I say "sod the spectators, I'm paying to play I don't care if they come and watch or not".

Which is why the contribution to costs of the oval racers is important. The thinking is that the people calling the tune are actually paying the paper, in which case I'd race what people want to watch if they're paying me to do it, even in an exceedingly modest way.

Modesty becomes you Max.

[Rudernst]

if anything most historic races are short, very short

20 minutes is the norm for an HSCC race
25 minutes already is considered long (HGPCA and FIA championships)

practices are usually between 12 and 20 minutes

the numbers for Goodwood are 15 min practice and 20 min race
total tracktime of 35 minutes
for this you spend 4 days at the circuit

so how short would you want races to be as a spectator ?

in fact the races are so short that it does make much sense for me travel to UK unless I race two cars

races on the continent tend to be longer

short race duration does make sense bearing in mind that many race engines can have lifes in the 6-8 hour region
meaning that the short races allow you to get over a season with one engine

Rudolf

[rbm]

we did Monza this year, 22 hour drive each way for two 25 minute races. well it would have been two 25 minute races but we broke it in practice and limped around one race with only 3rd and 4th.

and the cost 895 euros, plus the usual fuel, food, ferries etc.

how many spectators - well a handful or so.

so who is paying for this historic motor sport we all enjoy?

[midgetman]

>>>>>>>>>>>so how short would you want races to be as a spectator ?

7 - 10 minutes. And have two races per grid.

That's the feeling I was getting from spectators on the Castle Combe forum when it was up and running. And the late Howard strawford (boss of Castle Combe Circuit) agreed, and he pretty much got things right where entertainment was concerned.

I haven't been to a car race meeting as a neutral spectator for years. (Maybe that's the reason!) I'm only repeating what I've learned from regular spectators, it's no great master plan of mine this time. I'm just the messenger!

I'm sure I've seen race programmes of the historic period with 5 lap races, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Thundersports]

As a spectator I hate the longer races but understand the competitors have paid for the track time. This though is counter productive as the circuits won't promote these meetings as to be honest there very boring. The last thing that MSV want to do is get loads of spectators in to watch a snooze fest; they won't come back! Hence the BTCC does well as it's entertaining and well packaged. I agree with Rudenst about the Hscc delivering short races which is great. At the Brands Masters some races are painfully to long for a promoted meeting with lot's of spectators.

What needs to be addressed is the future; competitors and spectators at club level. Look at the Formula Ford Festival very few entries and less than 500 spectators. I think that is a good rule of thumb and is alarming for the future.

[grantp]

Short races (i.e. 10 mins or so) might work as short tracks with good viewing. (If the objective is to attract spectators ....)

Brands Indy.

Mallory without the hairpin.

Parts of Silverstone.

Cadwell without the Mountain section.

Lydden perhaps.

Rockingham if the full original oval was viable.

Donington by just using the "GP" loop.

Presumably something similar could be configured for Snetterton.

Llandow would probably be OK?

Croft might have some potential as long as they cut through to the main straight rather than going out into the countryside through the Sunnys.


On the negative side would be the extra stress on components for more starts for the same track time - unless everything was a rolling start. It may need to be.

Recovery time between races would have to be minimised - or eliminated.

Would it make more sense to tap in to the existing Oval circuit stock car opportunity and simply build some stock car circuits at the existing race tracks?

The advantage of the Stock tracks was that they were in the middle of habitation areas whereas most race circuits are in the countryside and require effort to get to.

Go Oval at the circuits now and then just wait a year or two until the city and town build out brings the potential spectator hordes to the tracks. Problem solved.

Castle Combe is even re-prepared for E-car racing with its solar array (so long as the sun is available.

In fact there's the answer.

Electric cars. Quiet enough to be viable in urban locations and will only run for about 10 mins on batteries anyway. Perfect!

[chunder]

There is a potential stock car track possibly being built at an existing venue in the next few years apparently.

One is closing in a central location, and it is likely that they will never get planning for a brand new location these days, despite trying.

So, one of the remaining options is to build within an existing venue, which is what is mooted.

I personally will believe it when I see it judging from the people involved.

These days there are few tracks within cities or towns, noise and property prices have seen to that. Most are either out the way or in industrial areas. One or two are in towns, but again fairly out the way.

Tapping into it is great, but the two genres rarely sit together comfortably, we are treated as second class citizens by most forms of supposed regular motorsport, and that is unlikely to change.

[VIVA GT]

I'm sure that years gone by they tried short oval races at Mallory Park using the old club circuit (not using the hairpin), but I don't remember it being much of a success then. Maybe the circuit being a mile long (instead of ¼ mile) didn't help?
They also used the Mallory Park big oval for Eurocars back in the day too, also running anti-clockwise adding to the spectacle. (Especially so when cars lost it exiting Gerards bens and ended up driving through the pit lane before re-joining the track!)

[andy97]

As a competitor, i wouldn't contemplate going any further than probably Mallory for a single 15 or 20 min race. I'd probably go as far as Silverstone for 2 X 15 min races. But that's it. And I live basically at Donington Park, so not that far from either of the other 2 mentioned.

There's a reason why I race in 5-6 CSCC 40 min races each season, and it's not spectators.

The down time between races has to be paid for as its not revenue earning. So 2 X 20 min races will always be more expensive than a single 40 min race, because 2 x 20 min races actually takes up about 55-60 mins of track time.

I used to race in the Open single seater races at Silverstone Stowe when the BARC-SEC used to put those meetings on. £100 for a 10 min practice, 2 X 10 min races and 1 x 15 min races IIRC. They were good fun but it was only a 1 mile circuit and the club weren't paying for the track hire. I'd do something like that again at that sort of fee but doubt I'd go further.

[grantp]

That's interesting Andy.

Writing as a spectator living in the the same area I have to say that I have a similar opinion.

Whilst I'm not averse to the odd far flung trip to revisit a circuit from the distant past or just to add one to the list visited, by and large the economics and time required (together with the routes to be negotiatied for some locations) point to the same places.

Donington, Mallory, Silverstone (mainly because there are many events during the year where I will likely meet up with people I know) are the primary targets.

However Oulton and Cadwell are nice and interesting and about the same distance as Silverstone. Not quite as convenient from a Motorway and time point of view but not too bad. Cadwell much more accessible with the A46 update a few years ago.

I suppose Rockingham too is within a similar radius but it's not somewhere that calls out to me.

Maybe the secret is not to be seeking National coverage but to plan to make good with local competitors and spectators. I suppose that is somewhat akin to the approach that Castle Combe has taken. Indeed traditionally there has been a pattern of local championships that seem to survive adequately well.

Whether the ambitions of the circuits can be satisfied by locally centric events is a different matter. With a rising population and reduction in the number of motor sport location options one might think that both competitor and spectator numbers could be improved.

However, with so many more possible weekend distractions these days and a social movement that might be headed away from MotorSport for a number of reasons that could be a forlorn hope.

Maybe Mercedes, should they join in with Formula-E in 2018, could retire Lewis to a UK series.

Make it 2 car teams and run as a Pro-Am relay race with a "celeb" in the other car. That should get the fans flocking in .... or not.

[terence]

One main concern is ok,have short ten minute races,but how many competitors would enter?

[bauble]

From a spectator's point of view I have often wondered why people will come great distances, and spend hours at (say) Silverstone just to take part in a race lasting 15/20 minutes. Presumably it is the whole experience of a 'day out' that appeals.

As a spectator I also enjoy longer races where fortunes can change on a regular basis, and provide plenty of action without having to wait around for endless, periods while multiple grids are formed with all of the formation, green flag laps prior to actual competition getting under way. The time taken to assemble a grid for a 5 lap handicap (VSCC) can take longer than the race itself.

When attracting paying customers is important (BTCC) the 'show' has to be a major part of the programme. Well advertised and 'spectator friendly', the BTCC does this brilliantly.

Few club meetings of any persuasion endeavour to attract spectators, and so have to please their customers, the drivers and entrants. It must be up to them to dictate what is laid on surely?

Something like the Revival without the hype and razza mataz would be ideal for myself;
A couple of 30 minute races, a decent 2/3 hour, two driver race, and a couple of 15/20 minutes to wind up the day.

The Revival is too tiring and costly for me these days and the Classic is a real marathon, trying to be all things to all men.

But then again, who cares what I want?

[chunder]

I think there are only a few events that even attempt to cater for spectators. THe Classic, the two Goodwood meetings and the Brands Historic weekend, perhaps the Donington event too.

That is enough for me, though I rarely attend more than one of those events a year as most of the competitors in them are the same, barr the odd grandee series and driver/car combo.

It isn't about attracting fans, those days are long gone and never to return I am afraid, the world has moved on apace.

I think the best that can be done is locally, someone mentioned Combe earlier and they did a fabulous job of getting people in to their track. Lots of events but centered around a few open rules sort of series to attract a lot of drivers.

It worked for many years, not sure if it still does. But you have a big catchment area in Bristol, Bath, Taunton, Yeovil etc.

Palmer is only interested in getting you to spend money, he wants you to get involved in track days and experiences, fair enough he is now SOLELY a businessman not a fan. But that model does not attract fans to watch, and that aspect of motorsport is now almost totally ignored unless you are paying silly entrance money.

[Moneyseeker]

You may recall that when at the helm of Brands Hatch Leisure, Nicola Foulston floated the idea of running club meetings behind closed doors on the basis that NO crowd was more economic (to the circuit) than a very small crowd...

Overall, I think there are too many classic events and classic motoring events and more being started all the time, many of whom are aiming at the same entrants, exhibitors, traders, car clubs and paying public.

I agree that classic club racing has to a certain extent been overtaken by the large promoted events both in the UK and Europe and some of the club HSCC events (Snetterton had a poorish entry I recall) have the knock on of not getting some entrants because the cars are racing elswhere, on the way to/back from elsewhere or being re-built/prepared before going elsewhere..

Another good point raised is about events like the Silverstone Classic and why they get the spectator numbers when you can seen some or even quite a few of the same cars at the Brands Masters or Donington Festival that relatively have three men and a dog attending and quite likely a better view of the racing- is it really to mosey around trade stands, look at lines and lines of MX5's and Porsche 911's and listen to retro bands?

[VIVA GT]

I've been to Knockhill a couple of times (hardly my local circuit) and their meetings always seem to be well attended. Could this be due to good local promotion by the circuit?
Or, is it the fact that as it's the only circuit in the area all of the motorsport fans within a 50 mile radius have only one option? (Whereas I have Mallory, Donington, Rockingham & Silverstone to choose from)