Montoya blows it again

[Jukebox]

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
PLease don't get shirty with me Jukes. Better you seek the info from Red who seems to have his head screwed on right. I have yet to see Red say anything that is technically nonsense. It's just that I like to pull his leg.


Valve

Valve....to prove that all the technical problems that Williams are having are not purely BS as i have revealed and discovered. I'm not trying to make a point here but just clear the air that i'm doing a lot of research on Williams chassis and aero package plus the BMW engine because i wanted to find out myself why they are not performing considering the budget, resources and experience they have in formula1.

Here is what Ralf had said after the German grand prix taken from the formula1.com

"Finally I had an additional stop to top up the pressurised air for the pneumatic valve drive of the engine. Anyway, positions two and three are a good result for the team."

There you have it!

[Jukebox]

Like i've said...BMW have not find a way yet as to find the perfect seal to prevent the excess pressurised nitrogen gas loss when the valve closes. That is why they tend to call their cars to pit even though sometimes when the tyres were not needed to be changed. Observe their pitstops....

[Valve Bounce]

I read Ralf's quote also. However, I'd like to know where you got the information that BMW have not found the perfect seal to prevent the excess Presurrised nitrogen gas loss. Earlier on, you told us that this was caused by excessively high revs. I mean, where are you getting all this high tech info?
As to the fact that Williams are not performing, I know this is far from being impressive, but they are ahead of McLaren, Renault and all the other teams except Ferrari. Surely their performance can hardly be classified as "not performing".

http://www.anz.com.au/

[Red]

Originally posted by freud
1.Red, JPM is not a demigod, but he is one of the best drivers on grid. [...] But at least one should recognize his talent.

[...]

2. Lets not forget that this is JPM's second season in F1

[...]

3. that JPM doesnt need to prove his worth to anyone.

The comparison with Senna and Prost has already been discussed

Freud.

1. I DO recognize his tallent. But that alone DOESN'T make him one of the "best drivers on grid", if that was what I think you mean it. If it is what I would mean (ie he's one of the best 20-22 drivers on grid) then we agree on that too.

2. That's utter nonsense. Only second? Don't give me the "he has to accumulate experience" yet again, because winning in F3000, CART, Indy 500 and racing hard in, not second season, but 32 GP's in one of the best 3 cars on grid should give him enough experience by now; if not he's one of the slowest learners that hit the track. And certainly those facts brought him the demig... ermmm... "one of the best drivers on grid" status. You cannot use the same things as an excuse.

3. Yes he has.

[Jukebox]

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
I mean, where are you getting all this high tech info?

http://www.anz.com.au/

Learn how a pneumatic valve engine works, observe teams during pre race setups/pitstops, research and read comments made...then you'll get the idea. And oh...i always try to get confirmation about what i'm able to think of with my friend

And why the hell did you link the anz website for?

[Valve Bounce]

Evreybody - I have to apologise for the ANZ website. I had copied it from my Netscape to put it onto my IE but I forgot to re-copy my Bounce character. Very sorry for the confusion. :confused:


Valve

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by Jukebox


Learn how a pneumatic valve engine works, observe teams during pre race setups/pitstops, research and read comments made...then you'll get the idea. And oh...i always try to get confirmation about what i'm able to think of with my friend

OK, so I understand that your interpolations are based on you own observations and interpretations, and confirmed by Dancing machine. :rolleys:
You still have not answered the specific questions I asked about the imprefect seal, or your change of heart from the high revs used by Williams as the cause.


Valve

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Red
Freud.


3. Yes he has.

in response to Freud's statement..... that JPM doesnt need to prove his worth to anyone.

I'd say that the only people he has to prove anything to is.......

Frank Williams and Patrick Head

and i'd say he's done that and thats why they have renewed his contract and also why Frank said a couple of weeks ago that JPM with Williams could match the Mansell/Williams/'92 heyday.

[freud]

Thanks, mr v! I wouldnt add anymore to it.

OMG Red, you are really good at taking 10% out from one's post and blowing it up into a full post of your own. What you dont pay attention to is rest of the post which is 90%. I understand that you dont have answers to 90% of the points covered in my previous post and hence you picked up the 10% that could be argued.

Alright even if I agree with you that 'JPM is experienced' wouldnt you agree that M. Schu, Prost & Ayrton didnt win at great ratios during their first 2 f1 seasons??

[Sato san]

Red...your turn !

ding ding ...round 2

........i think the people that are knocking Juan do have a point , but it is a very very small point . To call him a car breaker just isnt correct , But its fair to say he has cocked up a couple of times.....but its all getting blown out of proportion .

[Valve Bounce]

In the final analysis, we have to determine whether we want a fast cruiser or an exciting racer. I honstly believe this is what the argument boils down to. With the exception of Jukes, of course, who seems to be the only one here addressing the original title of this thread. At least Jukes keeps to the point of the argument, and tries the best, in his own way, to explain the reasons for JPM's dnf's. There Juks, I am admitting that I do appreciate what you post here and I do enjoy our discussions la!!

[Red]

Yo guys, this is fun you know! I hope you have same good time as I do!

Freud buddy.

Originally posted by freud
Thanks, mr v! I wouldnt add anymore to it.

OMG Red, you are really good at taking 10% out from one's post and blowing it up into a full post of your own. What you dont pay attention to is rest of the post which is 90%. I understand that you dont have answers to 90% of the points covered in my previous post and hence you picked up the 10% that could be argued.

And you understood wrongly Mr Zig. Anyway, was that a double post 'cos I have a strange feeling of deja vu. I did not consider necessary to respond to the other percentage since they were nicely addressed by other forumer fellows. But if you insist:

& that he has suffered from extreme bad luck in a few races which he should've won

Bad luck! BAD LUCK!!!! You are trying to pull a fast one don't you! Driving one of the best cars on grid is what your idea of bad luck is!?

& that 'points' are not everything.... if they were then name Gilles wouldnt sell more merchandise than Michael in year 2000

Of course points are not everything! Selling merchandise is! Anyway, I'll address that later in my post, try to read it to the end.

& that JPM has proven his speed & talent (if you cant accpet it, its your fault, just ask FW).

I believe that I already recognized his talent. His wisdom is that I question.

& that JPM doesnt need to prove his worth to anyone.

I believe that I already answered that. Which raises another good question, how on earth did you come with that 90%? Anyway I'll try that again. Mr V You are wrong! Frank and Patrick are not the only guys! He has to prove ME too if he wants me to recognize his greatness. He has done little in that area so far.
----------
Anyway, that a new one and I'll address it right now:

Alright even if I agree with you that 'JPM is experienced' wouldnt you agree that M. Schu, Prost & Ayrton didnt win at great ratios during their first 2 f1 seasons??

You might take some time to read Peter's reply dated 19-09-2002 17:51 GMT. But if this is difficult, here I go again:

Lots of differences among them: Firstly neither of them were not hailed as the second coming. Secondly they really were inexperienced and thirdly neither of them drove a top car. That Williams that Montoya so often blew last year WAS capable of wins. I agree it's not the best car, but it's second best car. And anyway, you, once again, try to divert the discussion towards your way. I was NOT arguing about starts/wins percentage. (which is lousy by the way). I criticize him for a proved inability to get the car in the 3rd place if 3rd is all that can be get that day. Don't give me that "he has a winner spirit he doesn't settle for 3rd" because
a) it's stupid
b) that statement, not Montoya because at Monza for example prior the start he clearly stated that a 3rd is all that they can get. Well apparently a 3rd was all that they could get but he didn't get a 3rd. That's my point.

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
In the final analysis, we have to determine whether we want a fast cruiser or an exciting racer

VB, no. You are wrong. By now Montoya proved only the exciting part. You might add a 3rd option, a successful racer. Fast he is, cruiser certainly he is not but racer? Racers do race for the Championship not for a single turn glory. Uhh.... and the title of the thread was that Pablo blew it. Again. He did: damaged his car by missing several times the chicanes and riding the high kerbs of Monza plus gravel traps plus the new speed bumps several times. That would make 2 of us...

[Sato san]

Red , but the nature of this thread is wrong....yes , he may have blown his chances at Monza by being a little to aggresive , but to say he has blown it a again is wrong , because that makes out that is all he has been doing all season .

I also think we have different idea's of what a racer should be . My idea of a racer should not be a points gatherer....but he should be a race driver who wants to race people ....but with the matutity to drive with his head rather than his heart every now and then ....not every race !

[Red]

Originally posted by Sato san
My idea of a racer should not be a points gatherer....but he should be a race driver who wants to race people ....but with the maturity to drive with his head rather than his heart every now and then ....not every race !

Yes, Sato san, that's the point! OR might I alter it a bit: "always, not every now and then, race with head and his heart"

PS: Ermm..... the "again" part is not inapropriate. That was not the first... not the second, but was one more in a long string... And the way I see the situation developing it won't be the last. Actually I remember Canadian GP last year. He blew it. Again . The Team Willy were king enough to "officially" say that he had a suspension problem. (they didn't lie, he really had a suspension problem, but after he hit the wall). Something happened in a closed doors garage that day, because for the next several races he really improved his performances, and in the end that lead to a "formidable second half of the season". But apparently a second similar discussion must be made. Quickly!

[Valve Bounce]

OK Red et al, I'll put it right on the line. Would you prefer to see JPM race the way he does, or would you prefer that he drove like Ralf?


Valve

[freud]

Red,
Reading your post is like reading a fairy tale... I gave you a logical point that Prost, Senna and Schu M, didnt exactly won 1 out of every 4 race during their first 2 f1 seasons.

Do you seriously think that FW 24 is a great car or Michelins are great tyres??? If you do than you are mistaken. I dont think Williams is anywhere near the Ferrari and infact its in worst shape than it was in 2001. That because Ferrari has now produced an engine which is better than the BMW and hence they have complete domination of every track including the power circuits. Williams chassis sucks, their engine is not the best anymore, their tyres are sh1t, & their aerodynamics are not even as good as Macs. To be honest its only a miracle that JPM was able to produce those pole position laps.

[Valve Bounce]

OK, here's my view for what it's worth. With the help of their computer guru, Ferrari has developed their new gearbox cum clutch which gives them virtually continuous power through gear shifts. This alone would result in the saving of a few tenths around a circuit. Add to that, Ferari have a better engine in terms of reliability and power is not lacking, they have superior aero (ask Jukes if you don't believe me), an exclusive tyre partnership with Bridgestone, great chassis, better Brawn for race tactics, and a talented driver in SchM. Add all that together, and it will explain the Ferrari domination. Various posters here have derided the Williams chassis, brakes, aero, and tyres, and under the circumstances, how on earth do you expect JPM to keep up with the Ferraris, let alone qualify ahead of them. Oh!! he did? WOW!!


Valve

[Red]

Freud, FW24 and Michelin are not better than Ferrari, perhaps, but the combination can finish a race. Can finish a race in 3rd place. Montoya didn't.

And certainly that combination is better than Senna's Toleman and Prost McLaren and Schumacher's Benetton. Any comparison you are trying to make with them is ridiculous. (and by the way, the BMW IS STILL THE MOST POWERFUL ENGINE, IF NOT THE BEST)

I do not expect him to dominate the Championship, but would a finish be too much for Montoya? What the heck are ytou trying to prove with Senna's starts/win rate in his first 2 seasons?

-------------------
VB. I don't care how Pablo decides to race.

The facts that you presented in your last post are undeniable. That surely explain why the Ferrari boys are so happily lapping the entire field. That however does not explain why Eddie's Jaguar was on podium at Monza, or why Pablo finished the race in 11 place at Hungaroring.

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
[...]how on earth do you expect JPM to keep up with the Ferraris, let alone qualify ahead of them. Oh!! he did? WOW!!

I'm not surprised that he quallify ahead of them. I already said that he does have the most powerful engine. And Michelin tyres might not be so good over a race distance but certainly they are softer than Bridgestone and that counts over a single fast lap. But you just hit the nail on the head with the other statement: I DO NOT EXPECT HIM TO KEEP UP WITH FERRARI! I expect him to realize that and wisely finish the race in 3rd place. Besides, the bad luck can strike at any moment but if he's not on the track he cannot capitalize.

[Sato san]

But your making out he's been trashing it all year long Red......and he hasnt , he been driving his nuts off , and in the process of the season he has had a couple of races where he should maybe have backed off and he didnt.....that is completely different to being a car breaker etc etc......

Valve.......I love the way Juan Pablo drives , i pray he never goes down the path of his team mate . But he does just need to tame it a touch every now and then , but nowhere near the way he's being critised in this thread so far .

[Red]

I didn't say "all year along" I said "not for the first time". He did more than he was expected in Belgium for example. He did well in races like Silverstone, he realized that he cannot defend and brought home a well deserved podium finish... Why can't he repeat that more often? He blew it big time in Hungary for example. And at Ring. For example.

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by Red


VB. I don't care how Pablo decides to race.

Oh YES!! You do. You have criticised how JPM races during many posts in quite a few threads so far, so you cannot suddenly deny this to avoid a simple question which you obviously are trying to evade. This does seem to be your line of action : when you are faced with a simple question, you avoid it like the plague and simply talk about something else. Sorry, Red, but if you have strong opinions about something, or against somebody, stand up and state your case, rather than run away from it. You have criticised how JPM has been racing, not finishing races, and then you avoid my question by saying pathetically "you don't care how Pablo decides to race." If you don't, then why do you criticise him at all?
Just look at my posts!!!!! I don't shirk any questions aimed at my opinions - I don't run away and avoid any answers. I have always stated that JPM brings a breath of fresh air to F1, and I will stand by this statement. Just challenge away at this statement, and I will address your questions.


Valve

[Red]

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
You have criticised how JPM races during many posts in quite a few threads so far

Never. Never. Actually if I ever had a reason to "criticize" was that if he chose an intelligent way to race he could delay the Championship by a couple of GP's. What I do is to constantly question the "one of the best drivers on grid" status that he receives. He may drive how he pleases, but to acknowledge him as a racer he should start to bring the points that his car could get. By now, the only reason of concern is that he crashes into someone, not that he seriously challenges in the Championship.

PS: Yes he does bring a dose of fresh air. But if you really want that Schumacher/Ferrari domination end, then more than just fresh air is what Formula 1 needs.

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by Red
Never. Never. Actually if I ever had a reason to "criticize" was that if he chose an intelligent way to race he could delay the Championship by a couple of GP's.

You are in denial Red!! Just go up this very page, then the previous page, and then the previous one; then go onto the other Montoya thread, and you can read that you have been one of the most vociferous ctitics of JPM and how he races.
Why not come clean and answer what I have asked? Art thou speechless on the specific question that I ask? Do you not prefer to duck the question that you find the amazing Ralf even less worthy of praise?

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.


Valve

[Red]

Bouncey. I do not have to criticize him. As I countless times said, I am content with his performances; a BMW Williams AND a good driver could cause problems to Ferrari and I am a tifoso. Actually I do criticize, but not Montoya. His fans. Every of my "criticizms" were actually responses of other various "He's the man in the wet (after he was thoroughly beaten at Silverstone)" or "You'll be the man (next day after a lacklustre 'performance' at Hungaroring) or all those too many "he races with his heart/has big balls" comments made by others. Please remind me where did I start a debate against Montoya.

Let me repeat: I do NOT voice against Montoya's driving style. I do not care. I do find faults in those judgements that perceive his driving style as the best possible.

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by Red
Bouncey. I do not have to criticize him. As I countless times said, I am content with his performances; a BMW Williams AND a good driver could cause problems to Ferrari and I am a tifoso. Actually I do criticize, but not Montoya. His fans. Every of my "criticizms" were actually responses of other various "He's the man in the wet (after he was thoroughly beaten at Silverstone)" or "You'll be the man (next day after a lacklustre 'performance' at Hungaroring) or all those too many "he races with his heart/has big balls" comments made by others. Please remind me where did I start a debate against Montoya.

Let me repeat: I do NOT voice against Montoya's driving style. I do not care. I do find faults in those judgements that perceive his driving style as the best possible.

Red, there are 11 pages to this thread already, and I am certainly not one who will nit pick through it to prove my point. That way, one only makes enemies of friends.

So can I take your

" I do NOT voice against Montoya's driving style. I do not care."

as a categorical statement regarding the past and a promise for the future then?


Valve