ALMS 2009 Discussion

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by davehenrie

I too have wanted a fix for the pacecar placement ruining races, here is my suggestion.

Race officials do not consider a car lapped until all the cars in the class have been lapped. So if a GT2 car gets passed by the leader, but the rest of the GT2 cars are still in front of the leader when a yellow comes out, the sorry lone lappee gets to join the tail end of the lap the rest of the GT2 pack is on. Similarly, if only 1 GT2 car is left on the lead lap when a yellow occurs, all the GT2 cars get waved by and they rejoin the field at the end of the line.
This creates an artificial boost for the slugs, but does not elevate them in the standings, a car in 16th will still be in 16th, just not a lap down to the rest of the GT2 cars that managed to stay ahead of the leader til a yellow condition occurred. Think of it as a Lucky Dog for all the GT2 cars.(or P2 )
Some caveats...When the lead GT2 car is lapped, then ALL the GT2 cars are considered lapped. No Lucky dog back to the lead lap but they do get to stay on the same lap as the lead GT2. This prevents the field from being broken up so much so that the bulk of the race is spent avoiding damage and racing only fast enough to stay that 1 lap ahead. As the lead GT2 sinks down the ladder and is lapped repeatedly, then all the cars who are on the same lap, stay on that lap with the leader, even if yellows again occur. A gt2 car that is two laps behind when a yellow occurs might get 1 back, but never 2 or more. The car has to be physically on the same lap as the lead class car to get the wave through. If the GT2 leader laps a GT2 car, that lapped car stays lapped. No freebie there either.
It's not perfect, but it keeps the field together, especially in the early going where yellows are often more frequent and 1 car can be placed 1 lap ahead merely because he was the last car in his class to possibly be lapped. I HATE situations where the lead GT2 car is barely in front of the race leader and the 2nd place GT2 car is right behind the race leader. Does the 2nd place GT2 car deserve to lose a lap when he's only 2 to 3 car lengths behind the GT2 class leader?

Better yet, keep the stinkin pace car --OFF of the track.

[WMUCarGuy]

I might have to make a trip to Petit instead of Laguna this year. Or maybe I can do both!

[pdxracefan]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Better yet, keep the stinkin pace car --OFF of the track.

That pretty much sums the way I see it, and have felt that way for years. Can't remember where that rule/procedure came from. Probably the ACO. Nascar?

[The Badger]

I think safety cars are a nessessary evil .

Makes me wonder why they cant deploy them properly , after all its not exactly rocket sceince , now is it ?

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by pdxracefan

That pretty much sums the way I see it, and have felt that way for years. Can't remember where that rule/procedure came from. Probably the ACO. Nascar?

NASCAR, it was a less obvious way, than black-flagging the wrong leader, to let the favorite children catch up when the wrong person was so far in front, the only way to have others catch up was a black-flag on the leader.

[TWK]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Any word of that Mundill Pescarolo thats supposed to show up this year ?

As I remember it, "supposed to show up this year" wildly overstates the expectation, even at the time of the announced purchase.

[Purist]

No. Full course cautions came about late in 1973 after the fiery, fatal crashes of Swede Savage at the Indianapolis 500 and Roger Williamson in the F1 Dutch GP at Zandvoort. It is now standard under the FIA, which has overriding authority on most major motorsport: even NASCAR is part of the ACCUS.

You bunch the cars up so safety crews can work more uninterrupted/effectively if the situation requires it. Both cautions at Mid Ohio required an intervention because you had a very real risk of someone else crashing into that same gravel pit at high speed if the field maintained anything like race speed while the Cup Porsche and the Van der Steur Radical were beached.

The problem with trying to re-establish gaps for a restart is the fudge factor, plus the fact that a given time interval equates to a very different distance between cars when they're going 55mph behind the pace car as opposed to 160mph under green conditions. Practically speaking, trying to restore the previous gaps between cars would be virtually unenforceable and a policing nightmare for officials; it simply wouldn't be remotely worth the effort to even attempt it.

[prototype]

(slightly off topic) Couldn't we better utilize local yellows. For something like a beached car couldn't we have a yellow at the marshal post before the incident, and then a green flag at the post just after the incident. Cars would have to utilize something similar to the pitlane speed limiter in that caution zone. Any speeders would be given a stop and go once the track went green.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Purist

No. Full course cautions came about late in 1973 after the fiery, fatal crashes of Swede Savage at the Indianapolis 500 and Roger Williamson in the F1 Dutch GP at Zandvoort. It is now standard under the FIA, which has overriding authority on most major motorsport: even NASCAR is part of the ACCUS.

You bunch the cars up so safety crews can work more uninterrupted/effectively if the situation requires it. Both cautions at Mid Ohio required an intervention because you had a very real risk of someone else crashing into that same gravel pit at high speed if the field maintained anything like race speed while the Cup Porsche and the Van der Steur Radical were beached.

The problem with trying to re-establish gaps for a restart is the fudge factor, plus the fact that a given time interval equates to a very different distance between cars when they're going 55mph behind the pace car as opposed to 160mph under green conditions. Practically speaking, trying to restore the previous gaps between cars would be virtually unenforceable and a policing nightmare for officials; it simply wouldn't be remotely worth the effort to even attempt it.

Full course cautions, even red flagged races have ALWAYS been around, it was not till NASCAR semi-regularily started using them that they became more and more common in other races.

When Johncock's car stopped late in the race at Indy and he simply pulled to the side went over to the creek that was there then, cooled himself off and watched the rest of the race sitting by the car, with nothing between and the rest of the cars.
This was long after Savage's crash.
Of couse that was before the closed and open pit bulls---- started too, whcih is another asinine creation by sanction's wannabe gods.

The IMSA and Trans-Am into the eighties would often just leave a dead car sitting on the side of the track through the eighties.
It took something truly nasty to get the pace car out. I prefer the old days of red flags, pull everyone instead of have a farce where they go round-and-round-and-round-and-rouind-and-round-and-round...behind a stinkin pace car.

As I said, a full course yellow has always been ther, when needed, but not till NASCAR showed it was a way to give also-ran a chance to win, did it become common in the U.S.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by prototype

(slightly off topic) Couldn't we better utilize local yellows. For something like a beached car couldn't we have a yellow at the marshal post before the incident, and then a green flag at the post just after the incident. Cars would have to utilize something similar to the pitlane speed limiter in that caution zone. Any speeders would be given a stop and go once the track went green.

Local yellows used to exist, they died with a lot of other things that made racing a contest and not a controlled joke.

[prototype]

I think this method could be done to prevent too many safety cars.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by prototype

(slightly off topic) Couldn't we better utilize local yellows. For something like a beached car couldn't we have a yellow at the marshal post before the incident, and then a green flag at the post just after the incident. Cars would have to utilize something similar to the pitlane speed limiter in that caution zone. Any speeders would be given a stop and go once the track went green.

Sound like an good option, but such a system might be choked discussions about when and where the limit is?.
Let's take an example:
The first chicane on Mulsanne, 2 cars are crashed here, one in the gravel and one in the barriers. There is debris on the entry to the chicanes, and gravel in the chicane.
Where should the limit start and end?.
Who are going to define that limit?
How would you inform the driver exactly where the start of the limit is?
And, if the crash happens just after the leader as gone thru the chicane, but the car in 2nd, get hit by the limit, is it fair that the 1st placed car gain 30secs, on a crash?

I like your suggestion, but i believe, unlike some others, that it's a very triggy business to deploy saftycars, and give the marshals time and peace in safety to clean up a accident prober.

[courageous]

at the dubai 24 hour, they don't use a safety car - they put a 'code 60' warning flag out & monitor car speeds so they do not exceed 60kph (basically, put your pit limiter on).

Likewise, they dont use a safety car on the nordschliffe (imagine trying to do a wave by when you have a grid of 170 cars)

I think allowing cars to race on the non affected bits of the track (especially with a sub 2 minute lap) could result in them arrriving at the scene full of red mist, locking the brakes at the last minute and making the situation much worse.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by Purist

No. Full course cautions came about late in 1973 after the fiery, fatal crashes of Swede Savage at the Indianapolis 500 and Roger Williamson in the F1 Dutch GP at Zandvoort. It is now standard under the FIA, which has overriding authority on most major motorsport: even NASCAR is part of the ACCUS.

You bunch the cars up so safety crews can work more uninterrupted/effectively if the situation requires it. Both cautions at Mid Ohio required an intervention because you had a very real risk of someone else crashing into that same gravel pit at high speed if the field maintained anything like race speed while the Cup Porsche and the Van der Steur Radical were beached.

The problem with trying to re-establish gaps for a restart is the fudge factor, plus the fact that a given time interval equates to a very different distance between cars when they're going 55mph behind the pace car as opposed to 160mph under green conditions. Practically speaking, trying to restore the previous gaps between cars would be virtually unenforceable and a policing nightmare for officials; it simply wouldn't be remotely worth the effort to even attempt it.

At one point in its history the Indianapolis Motor Speedway tried "Pace Signs" that were spaced at equal intervals around the 2.5 mile-oval that flashed numbers and the drivers were supposed to pass them on the "same Number" to ensure that they were traveling at the "caution pace."

Simply put, if the number "4" was on your pace sign when the yellow came out, you had to see "4" when you passed every sign thereafter until the green was ready to fly.

They did it so that the leaders would not lose the gaps they had established and worked for by racing, and in theory, it seemed to make a lot of sense.

However, EVERYBODY cheated on the pace sign system and it was next to impossible to enforce, so they dumped it after a few years of experimentation and went back to the pace/safety car system.

Bottom Line: Racers will take every advantage they can get, provided they can get away with it, so a system like that would never be effective.

FWIW

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by CTD

Sound like an good option, but such a system might be choked discussions about when and where the limit is?.
Let's take an example:
The first chicane on Mulsanne, 2 cars are crashed here, one in the gravel and one in the barriers. There is debris on the entry to the chicanes, and gravel in the chicane.
Where should the limit start and end?.
Who are going to define that limit?
How would you inform the driver exactly where the start of the limit is?
And, if the crash happens just after the leader as gone thru the chicane, but the car in 2nd, get hit by the limit, is it fair that the 1st placed car gain 30secs, on a crash?

I like your suggestion, but i believe, unlike some others, that it's a very triggy business to deploy saftycars, and give the marshals time and peace in safety to clean up a accident prober.

Well, while the gap gained is potentially larger than that gained with a typical local yellow, it is not dissimilar to what would normally happen through the course of a race. Consider that same crash with second place trailing the leader and then having to back-off to sneak through the debris, and perhaps not get passed those dueling GT2 cars ahead of him, that then delay his exit and subsequent top speed down the next part of the Hunaudieres, a lot of time lost - racing happens.

Chris

[prototype]

Back to ALMS 2009. (I try to never do this rumor mongering) A friend of mine who works for Audi told me that they were coming to Petit Le Mans this year. He is not a big sportscar fan, but he knew I was. I asked him how many cars and drivers and he had no idea.

I have no source to back this up, so it could be completely bogus, but it lines up with what the Bear says as well.

[The Real DMN]

Well it looks like Highcroft will still be in the ALMS next year even if Acura pull out.

According to Autosport Print Ed.

[ger80]

also online
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77641

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by prototype

Back to ALMS 2009. (I try to never do this rumor mongering) A friend of mine who works for Audi told me that they were coming to Petit Le Mans this year. He is not a big sportscar fan, but he knew I was. I asked him how many cars and drivers and he had no idea.

I have no source to back this up, so it could be completely bogus, but it lines up with what the Bear says as well.

i can't see why they wouldn't want to come to PLM. surely they don't want to hand the victory to anyone after years of dominating the event.

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by prototype

Back to ALMS 2009. (I try to never do this rumor mongering) A friend of mine who works for Audi told me that they were coming to Petit Le Mans this year. He is not a big sportscar fan, but he knew I was. I asked him how many cars and drivers and he had no idea.

I have no source to back this up, so it could be completely bogus, but it lines up with what the Bear says as well.

The thing about this whole Audi business of if and when they will return to racing, for me, comes back to the fact that here you have one of the most professional teams in world motorsport, and at the moment they appear to be doing nothing. They have Allan McNish, Dindo Capello and company, for all intents and purposes, supposedly sitting around twiddling their thumbs. TK has already stated that he is getting out of DTM to concentrate on sports car racing, so the intent on Audis return must be real. I guess there was some sort of post LM24 debrief that would have taken place. If there is still development going on with the R15, how do they keep it under the radar? You sure as hell don't move a team the size of Audi around without someone seeing whats happening and I am sure McNish, Dindo and the rest of the team must be getting itchy feet to get back amongst the action of real racing. These blokes are racers and I reckon that there is only so much testing that they can handle before even they get the ----- and move on. Lets face it, they ain't getting any younger. My money is on them being back in the ALMS before the end of the year, and ramping up to a full scale return in 2010.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

The thing about this whole Audi business of if and when they will return to racing, for me, comes back to the fact that here you have one of the most professional teams in world motorsport, and at the moment they appear to be doing nothing. They have Allan McNish, Dindo Capello and company, for all intents and purposes, supposedly sitting around twiddling their thumbs. TK has already stated that he is getting out of DTM to concentrate on sports car racing, so the intent on Audis return must be real. I guess there was some sort of post LM24 debrief that would have taken place. If there is still development going on with the R15, how do they keep it under the radar? You sure as hell don't move a team the size of Audi around without someone seeing whats happening and I am sure McNish, Dindo and the rest of the team must be getting itchy feet to get back amongst the action of real racing. These blokes are racers and I reckon that there is only so much testing that they can handle before even they get the ----- and move on. Lets face it, they ain't getting any younger. My money is on them being back in the ALMS before the end of the year, and ramping up to a full scale return in 2010.

You are right of course as Audi must be paying the bills and the salaries to keep the team together otherwise you would have seen people doing other things. They would surely only do that if they intended to race again soon. It is of course a decision that will be made way above the heads of the racing team but they must also have sanctioned to keep everyone on the payroll so the intent must be there.

[fieldodreams79]

and i guess we must ask, if the do want to make PLM, they have a bit more than a month to sort the car out (if that is needed)....have they been testing at all?
i apologize if i may be a Johnny-Come-Lately on this subject.

[Coach Ep]

Dutch motorsportnewssites are bringing the news of Neel Jani's biking accident, he is severely injured but still hoping to take part in the last couple of ALMS races this year including the Petit. Could this mean we are going to see Speedy/Sebah coming over with one or both their cars? Jani drove Hugh Hayden's team Lola-AM LMP1 at Le Mans this year.

[MJ_N_09]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Dutch motorsportnewssites are bringing the news of Neel Jani's biking accident, he is severely injured but still hoping to take part in the last couple of ALMS races this year including the Petit. Could this mean we are going to see Speedy/Sebah coming over with one or both their cars? Jani drove Hugh Hayden's team Lola-AM LMP1 at Le Mans this year.

Oops. Is the secret out?

[Jonerz]

Will Corvette Racing be awarded the GT1 class title this year?

Chris