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6 Mar 2012, 20:56 (Ref:3036180) | #2851 | ||
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careful now, that's crossing that dangerous line saying that Toyota may not win this year. if anything, i expect them to have better luck than Peugeot did in their first year. I don't think a manufacturer like Toyota would get involved just to do a half-arse job. most of all they wont upgrade to Full WEC just to Give Audi the Manufacturers title. the TS010 did it in their first year, The TS020 had 3 class wins, so i don't see why a win cant be achieved by the TS030. i'd like to think we are entering a more mature and developed Toyota team than before especially after their F1 mishaps. Arrogance From Audi Fans is the reason that i want Toyota To trump Audi. Last time the Two met at the Lemans track Audi got smoked By Toyota
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6 Mar 2012, 21:29 (Ref:3036193) | #2852 | |
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Sorry, but it is not arrogance that makes most of us think that Toyota's chances of winning Le Mans are rather slim. Some facts that make Audi the favorite:
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6 Mar 2012, 21:41 (Ref:3036198) | #2853 | |
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'On paper' the Diesels should be down on hp, not up. Toyota's hybrid system has already been tested before in a 24hour race with the Supra, and has further been improved upon and tested again over 24 hours. Audi's wins were against what competition? Not saying those wins are meaningless, but who have they beat regularly that has been a factory backed team besides Peugeot? And Peugeot handed them losses in every race for over a year besides LeMans. The R18 Ultra is supposed to be brand new. Their Hybrid is brand new. They haven't even tested it for an extended period of time yet. Last year they lost 2 of their three cars, and the driver that helped them win the race- was a rookie- from SuperGT, just like the rookies at Toyota, and one from F1.
Audi may have the advantage in experience, and in # of cars. But on terms of speed I wouldn't give them that advantage just yet. I of course hope it's as close as the Peugeot battles. |
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6 Mar 2012, 22:03 (Ref:3036203) | #2854 | ||
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Did you read the source I referred to? I will give the quote: "It's a strange decision, at Le Mans this year the ACO told us the diesels had roughly 50-60 more horsepower. And now they reduce them by around 35 hp. So we go into 2012 knowing the diesels will have an advantage of around 30 hp."
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The 2012 R18s have not done an endurance test on a track. However that does not mean that the engine, gearbox and hybrid system have not been tested extensively on a test bench. Which rookie are you referring to? Lotterer who has done Le Mans in LMP1 since 2009, or Treluyer who has done Le Mans in LMP1 since 2007? |
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6 Mar 2012, 22:08 (Ref:3036206) | #2855 | |||
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Quote:
1. None of the winning Audi's where rookies!. Treluyer has raced most famously with the 908 Pescarolo. Marcel Fässler drove the R15 and Andre Lotterer did too. 2. We all know that "on paper" doesn't mean what is true on the paddock. Personally i believe the experts on the Diesel advantage. 3. The hybrid system of the TS030 is as far as i understand not the same as the Supra one. The Supra one was tested in a 101.5 Dome, but too heavy. Yes, Toyota got more experience with the hybrid system than Audi, but the Hybrid system isn't necessarily the race decider! 4. 2008-2011 Audi was under massive pressure from Peugeot, and this could be easily be seen on how they performed, compared to the 2000-2002 races. Saying that Peugeot lost the race instead of Audi's win is in my eyes disrespectful. Audi and Peugeot choose two different ways to attack Le Mans, and Audi chose right for all but 1 race. In 2005 and 2006 Audi was under massive pressure from Pescarolo. In 2005 the Pescarolo was a lot faster than the slow and heavy R8, but reliability failed for Pescarolo (very much like Peugeot. In 2006 the roles where switched. The unproven Diesel machinery proved a little difficult for Audi and gave Pescarolo the chance to win if Audi screwed up, Audi knew this, but kept it together (sometimes just barely). You put way to much focus on speed. Audi has won more times with reliability than speed. The TS020 was a incredibly fast machine, but too unreliable, let's hope the TS030 won't have the same flaw. ADD: gwyllion was faster than me |
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Hvil i Fred Allan. (Rest in Peace Allan) |
6 Mar 2012, 22:12 (Ref:3036208) | #2856 | |
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Gwyllion- He was a rookie with Audi was he not? Also, I didn't say Toyota's hybrid system was 'automatically reliable'. You put those words there. I said the hybrid system has already seen a 24 hour race (which it won). And the newer system which is basically a continuation/evolution of the one in the Supra, has had 3 testing sessions now at least, and one of those was over a period of 30 hours. Even if it was interrupted by issues, it didn't stop the test. Whatever your 'source' is, who really believes the Petrol engines are/were down by at least 50hp on the diesels? The torque is what makes up the big acceleration differences. I doubt Toyota's works engine will be short 30hp on Audi's. And CTD you're wrong- the TS020 wasn't 'flawed'. It wasn't allowed to race in any other events first of all. It was the tires that caused the crash. Michelin tires are very proven these days. And the TS020 was the fastest car at LeMans in 99. No one mentioned anything about Peugeot's win being an Audi failure. Why are you adding that in there? I said they beat Audi for over a year at every event, bar LeMans 2011. And were damn close at less than 20 seconds off.
Last edited by TF110; 6 Mar 2012 at 22:18. |
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6 Mar 2012, 22:20 (Ref:3036213) | #2857 | ||
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6 Mar 2012, 22:28 (Ref:3036218) | #2858 | ||
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[QUOTE=gwyllion;3036193]Sorry, but it is not arrogance that makes most of us think that Toyota's chances of winning Le Mans are rather slim. Some facts that make Audi the favorite:
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6 Mar 2012, 22:29 (Ref:3036219) | #2859 | |||
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Quote:
We have no information about the origins of the TS030 Hybrid system. Yes they have used knowledge from the Supra system, but as far as i understand it's a brand new system. We do not know exactly how many test Audi has done with the Hybrid system. We do not know how long time the longest Audi Hybrid test were, but we do know that they haven't completed a 24hour race rehearsal, and we know that the 30hour test was, as you say, with interruptions and therefor cannot be counted as a 24hour test in the way of Audi and Peugeots. The TS020 had a flaws, you can't get around it in any way. If it didn't have them it would have won. Again speed is not necessarily the best way to win Le Mans, this has been proven, and i don't know why you focus so much on it. I misread what you wrote about Peugeot vs. Audi, and redraw and apologies for what i wrote. But i stand by that Audi was under a lot of pressure in 2005 and 2006. |
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Hvil i Fred Allan. (Rest in Peace Allan) |
6 Mar 2012, 22:34 (Ref:3036222) | #2860 | |||
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[QUOTE=tyronnezx;3036218]
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Treluyer and Lotterer was not "fresh SuperGT recruits". Peugeot was very much up to the task of challenging Audi, how can you believe anything else? And, everybody lobbies for better card on their hands, if they have an advantage or not. It's the way of business and will always be. |
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Hvil i Fred Allan. (Rest in Peace Allan) |
6 Mar 2012, 22:39 (Ref:3036226) | #2861 | ||
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Again, who do you mean with "he"? Lotterer and Treluyer have been Audi factory drivers since 2010. Lotterer did his first Le Mans with Kolles in 2009. Treluyer did Le Mans in 2007 and 2008 with the Pescarolo LMP1 and in 2009 with the Pescarolo Peugeot 908.
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The top speed numbers from last year are enough evidence that the diesels had a significant advantage in power. Check the mulsanne's corner news archives. |
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6 Mar 2012, 22:44 (Ref:3036229) | #2862 | ||
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6 Mar 2012, 23:06 (Ref:3036232) | #2863 | |
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@Gwyllion- Last year are the key words. There were no HPD's last year either. Rebellion used a Toyota engine from SuperGT, which is now upgraded but still probably well short of the works Toyota engine. I realize Audi has done testing with their Hybrid, but they've not done a 24hour or 30hour test with it, as Toyota has. And @CTD- Just because there was minor issues with the 30hour test by Toyota, it's not considered a 24hour or more test like Audi and Peugeot? How are you qualified to say that? Did Toyota release information to the public saying that they couldn't complete the # of laps or hours because of a Hybrid issue? If it was a hybrid issue I wouldn't think that was considered 'minor' as the drivers put it.
Listen, guys- I'm not here to argue with you. I like this discussion. But lets not get the facts twisted up and make claims we don't know. A rookie at a team is certainly not a rookie at a certain race. I know this. But it's easy to see that SuperGT is quite a good place to see the driver skills when making the step up to LMPs. I have no doubt that Ishiura and Nakajima will do well. Buemi I'm probably more confident with as going from F1 to LMP is a decrease in speed. Davidson made a good transition as has other Audi drivers, McNish even came from Toyota's F1 project as his latest Formula car drive. I feel the European domination of this sport is going to disappear this year. We'll have DOME and Toyota on top of 3 HPD's. It'll be a great year and I think people give Audi the nod too easily because they've won so much. I think this year they'll be able to be beaten just like they were with Peugeot in the sport. |
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6 Mar 2012, 23:08 (Ref:3036234) | #2864 | |||
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[QUOTE=CTD;3036222]
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7 Mar 2012, 00:21 (Ref:3036253) | #2865 | |
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It doesn't matter because neither of the Audi drivers in 2011 was new to Le Mans or Audi LMP1 cars. The teams were exactly the same as in 2010.
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7 Mar 2012, 01:25 (Ref:3036274) | #2866 | ||
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7 Mar 2012, 07:49 (Ref:3036354) | #2867 | ||
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Maybe another statistic to show how difficult the overall victory in Le Mans can be: McNish has only won twice in 12 starts. |
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7 Mar 2012, 07:51 (Ref:3036355) | #2868 | |||
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7 Mar 2012, 07:57 (Ref:3036358) | #2869 | |
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You take things too literally. I said Davidson went from F1 to driving LeMans. Which is true. McNish also did the same. Regardless of whether he did LeMans or F1 first. The transition was made. Buemi is to get a P2 drive beforehand anyway. Plus he has tested a good deal with Toyota and probably will continue to do so. I'm sure Audi knows what it takes to get things up to speed regarding their Hybrid. But to say that Toyota is on the backfoot because they had slight issues in their 30hr test is wrong IMO. I think they'll be more evenly matched than what people say.
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7 Mar 2012, 08:00 (Ref:3036361) | #2870 | ||
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I'm actually struggling a little to see the point. Drivers go to and from F1 (or have done). Good drivers rise to the top. Where is this going?
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280 days...... |
7 Mar 2012, 08:19 (Ref:3036367) | #2871 | ||
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Quote:
Buemi does have good experience with tyre and fuel management with the recent changes in F1 (refueling ban and Pirelli tyres), but the other aspects are probably new to him. |
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7 Mar 2012, 08:30 (Ref:3036373) | #2872 | |
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That's the point I was making. I am confident about the SuperGT drivers, but I think I'm more confident with Buemi making a good transition. I think he has talent and I bet he makes a good endurance driver. I'd say the tires on these car are definitely more durable than the Pirelli's he was used to last year though! Does Audi have a dedicated tire development partnership with Michelin?
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7 Mar 2012, 09:27 (Ref:3036401) | #2873 | |||
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Hvil i Fred Allan. (Rest in Peace Allan) |
7 Mar 2012, 09:52 (Ref:3036414) | #2874 | ||
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7 Mar 2012, 10:28 (Ref:3036433) | #2875 | |||
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Quote:
However, Pescarolo did like the transition from 33/65-18 to 33/68-18 for the Michelin front tyres in 2006. Quote:
Last year Audi and Peugeot made the transition from 33/68-18 to 36/71-18 for their front tyres. Because of that, Michelin has effectively stopped the development of the narrow front tyre. So, in order to run the Michelin's latest tyre specification, the privateers are forced to modify their car. Rebellion/Lola adopted the wide front tyre concept last year, Dome is doing it for the S102.5 and Pescarolo chose the AMR-One tub because it is designed for the wide fronts. In all fairness, the brand new Dyson Lola B12/60 has the same tyre size all around. So Dunlop is also convinced by the benefits of the wide front tyres. |
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