Audi LMP1 Discussion

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by Articus

Audi has 3 ultra's racing at Sebring. Add to that the 2 E-Trons for Le Mans and thats 5 cars plus last years cars and spares for this year. I dont beleive they are short on R18's. They would atleast run regular R18's with Champion or something in America. Audi Joest isnt the only team handles the R18's right?

Of course it is. Champion Racing has been gone for quite a while.

[HJJ]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

Sure, they can do it, but Audi hasn't made any habit of doing something for nothing.

I could see them running PLM. The U.S. is an very important market for Audi. It would be great P.R. Big fish in a small pond, so to speak. Give the junior/DTM drivers some seat time and an auto entry for Le Mans to Audi Sport, N.A. if they win.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by HJJ

I could see them running PLM. The U.S. is an very important market for Audi. It would be great P.R. Big fish in a small pond, so to speak. Give the junior/DTM drivers some seat time and an auto entry for Le Mans to Audi Sport, N.A. if they win.

But the question you have to ask is who would make that decision for what reason and who would pay for it. Audi NA have made it clear they're not interested in doing ALMS. Audi AG won't run there just to give exposure to the brand if Audi NA doesn't pay for it. And I don't think seat time is enough of a justification - they could do that with an additional car in WEC too, without having to ship all the infrastructure to Road Atlanta.

[svt]

Could Audi use Sebring for testing new parts (engine, mechanical, maybe some aero?) from the 2012 R18s on last years models?

[chernaudi]

Currently as far as I know, the R18's entered for the race at Sebring are pretty much for last year with the exception of partial 2012 engine specs (2012 diesel BoP changes at least, or they could be the 2012 engines used in the e-tron/Ultra).

However, it is known that Audi has rented Sebring for the week following the 12 Hours for their new cars, though the exact whereabouts of them currently aren't known, but I'd expect them to be at Homestead or Sebring soon--in the latter case stored under lock and key until the Monday following the 12 Hours.

For PLM, the only reason I can see Audi doing this is if Audi of America pays for all or most of it. However, it's well known that financial spats between Audi of America and Audi AG caused the ALMS program to die after '08 to begin with, and I can't imagine unless it's an 11th hour deal that AoA would pay for Audi to run R18s at PLM this year.

Add to this that Champion Racing pretty much doesn't exist and yes, Joest used to (and possibly still does) own a shop near Road Atlanta but I believe that they haven't used it for years and may've sold it or rented it out to someone else, and that PLM isn't a WEC points race, and there's little incentive for Audi to run PLM this year. Yeah, they can say that they won PLM, but if Audi can win Sebring with the older, BoP'd R18s, what do you think that the Ultra or e-tron can do? Also, I don't think that Audi will run unless it's to ACO/FIA WEC technical rules, and IMSA might go their own way with that by PLM.

Maybe if Toyota enter PLM, maybe Audi may show, and both Audi Sport and TMG have the resources and logistical abilities to run PLM after Fuji, but I doubt that TMG, at least this year, will run PLM, and it's doubtful, with or without TMG being there, that Audi will race at PLM.

Audi know that NA is an important market for them, but Dr. Ullrich has said over the past couple of years that ALMS and LMS/ELMS programs would depend on if the importers would provide much of the financial support to such endeavors. And it seems that AoA would rather piggy back on Audi's success at Sebring, Le Mans and the WEC right now than pay for a large chuck of the check of an ALMS program.

Basically, unless it becomes a WEC event, PLM likely won't feature a factory Audi effort, and the WEC would prefer their own stand alone second US/NA event as opposed to PLM.

[gwyllion]

An interview with Benoît Tréluyer: http://www.lemans.org/en/races/fia-w...alm-_6419.html

The Road Atlanta test was 2 days.

For Benoît the launch of this new season cannot come quickly enough following two months away from the cockpit. It is incredible to note that the Audi Motorsport driver has not experienced such a long winter break in a decade. “I was so relieved after the recent two days of testing. It was a great feeling and nice to receive a proper dose of adrenaline. It was important for me to get back behind the wheel and back into routine.”

A comment about the difference between the 2011 and 2012 R18s.

We will be driving an updated version of the Audi R18 TDI from last year which means switching from the all-new hybrid Audi R18 e-tron Quattro. We will have to adapt slightly as the cars are rather different despite looking quite similar. They do not share the same characteristics so we will need a bit of time to find our feet again.

[chernaudi]

Fassler said that the biggest changes between the R18 e-tron quattro and the old R18 was the lack of a short burst of power out of corners (lack of e-tron system on the old cars) and especially the braking--the feel in the pedal because of the energy recovery is a bit different, though braking performance is about the same.

I wonder how the R18 Ultra differs from the old cars as far as feel and handling, as the Ultra doesn't have the hybrid system, but shares everything else with the e-tron and is thus a substantial rework of the 2011 R18.

And I'm betting that Audi may even be glad that they couldn't test at Sebring--the weekend seems to have been a bit of a rain out, and the weather forecast for Sebring from Monday on is warm and sunny pretty much all week and into he next week--perfect for the start of e-tron/Ultra testing.

[Articus]

So this car will effectively be front wheel drive in the pit lane? Thats has to be a first for le mans cars?

[gwyllion]

It is not completely clear whether a car with a front hybrid system is allowed to run in the pitlane on its electric motors.

The rules state that the front axle can only be driven above 120 km/h, but the pitlane limit is 60 km/h.

[gwyllion]

Interview with Loic Duval: http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...ebring-repeat/

[johnyardley]

Hi,

The advantage of adding of hybrid electric motors has more performance benefits for a petrol engine compared to a diesel engine which generally run more boost.
A benefit of an electric motor is the torque is delivered immediately. I think that a diesel engine doesn't need additional torque but perhaps more significantly doesn't need extra weight of the electric motors.
I appreciate your comments.

John

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by johnyardley

Hi,

The advantage of adding of hybrid electric motors has more performance benefits for a petrol engine compared to a diesel engine which generally run more boost.
A benefit of an electric motor is the torque is delivered immediately. I think that a diesel engine doesn't need additional torque but perhaps more significantly doesn't need extra weight of the electric motors.
I appreciate your comments.

John

Most of the LMP1's that run a petrol engine use a 3,4 liter v8. At the moment there are very little LMP1's that use a turbocharger. Besides that I think the diesel doesn't really need the additional power but it can put it to good use when the front wheels are being driven by these electric motors. The extra grip that becomes available through torque vectoring the front wheels will give it even more punch out of the corners and make sure the car doesn't understeer as much.

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

It is not completely clear whether a car with a front hybrid system is allowed to run in the pitlane on its electric motors.

The rules state that the front axle can only be driven above 120 km/h, but the pitlane limit is 60 km/h.

Could it be linked to/activated by the pit road speed limiter?

[chernaudi]

Johnny Herbert on the R18, R8 LMS, and 2011 LM24 incidents:

http://www.fourtitude.com/news/publi...cle_7584.shtml

Johnny says that the R18 suffers quite a bit from visibility restrictions because of the wide wheel arches. He does say that it's a rules deal, but not really: No rule says that teams have to run wide fronts, but it's sort of de-facto now as Michelin only makes the wide fronts now (unless someone pays for narrower tires), and with the power reduction, it's natural to try and get lap time back by maximizing cornering speeds.

He also says that from the cockpit the R18 is at least as noisy as the R8 was, in spite of the R18's exhaust noise, and that even compared to the R8, the R18 has a huge amount of grip, and that as far as he knows, all Audi LMP1s have had a slight understeer on initial turn-in, the R18 to a degree included.

Granted, this was a 2011 spec car (LM winner), but it does again bring up the question that will hopefully have some answers soon--how do the 2011 and 2012 cars compare?

Also, I don't think that any tub changes that Audi have made have improved visibility to the same degree that changes to the seating position have, and Kristensen hinted at them last year--many of those changes were installed on the R18s at Zhuhai.

It's also worth noting the evolution of the tires on the R8, R10, R15 and R18 as far as diameter changes. The R8's fronts were 33/65 on 13.5x18 stock, the R10s were 33/68 on 13.0x18, and the R18 has 36/71 on 14.5x18. I wonder if the 36/71 tires are unique to the R18 and other newer "wide front tire" LMP1s, as the R15 last year ran 13.5x18 wheels, and I'd think that it would've ran 33/68 fronts.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Johnny Herbert on the R18, R8 LMS, and 2011 LM24 incidents:

http://www.fourtitude.com/news/publi...cle_7584.shtml

Johny Herbert drove the R18 for Motorsport magazine. The edition of January 2012 has a long article about his finding. See http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/ga...0january-2012/ and http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/ra...-with-herbert/.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Johnny says that the R18 suffers quite a bit from visibility restrictions because of the wide wheel arches. He does say that it's a rules deal, but not really: No rule says that teams have to run wide fronts, but it's sort of de-facto now as Michelin only makes the wide fronts now (unless someone pays for narrower tires), and with the power reduction, it's natural to try and get lap time back by maximizing cornering speeds.

The wider front tyres are a direct consequence of the rule change in 2011. Cars had to produce less drag because the engines became less powerful. This lead to less aerodynamic grip (i.e. downforce), which manufacturers tried to compensate with more mechanical grip (i.e. wider tyres).

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I wonder if the 36/71 tires are unique to the R18 and other newer "wide front tire" LMP1s, as the R15 last year ran 13.5x18 wheels, and I'd think that it would've ran 33/68 fronts.

No all recent LMP1 cars with Michelin rubber (Audi, Peugeot, Aston Martin, Toyota, Rebellion Lola) are on 36/71-18 at the front and 37/71-18 at the rear.

The LMP1 cars with Dunlop tyres (Dyson Lola and Oak Pescarolo) use 36/71-18 all around. See e.g. http://www.dysonracing.com/cars/

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

No all recent LMP1 cars with Michelin rubber (Audi, Peugeot, Aston Martin, Toyota, Rebellion Lola) are on 36/71-18 at the front and 37/71-18 at the rear.

The LMP1 cars with Dunlop tyres (Dyson Lola and Oak Pescarolo) use 36/71-18 all around. See e.g. http://www.dysonracing.com/cars/

One except to the rule is the ARX-03a which still uses the conventional 33/68-18 at the front.

It seems that you still do not use the wide front tires?

"No actually, we use conventional tires LMP1 that are 330 mm wide instead of 360 ​​mm of the new LMP1s and 370 at the rear."

Why did you not take advantage of creating a new tub to reuse the concept that you started with the 02a?

"For two main reasons that are related to the fact that our car is intended for customers. First, wide tires involve a different design and a set-up that makes the car more difficult to drive. Then, the introduction of wide tires involve the introduction of technological solutions undesirable for cars intended for privateers."

source: http://www.86400.fr/articles/212-ada...ture-de-prives

[TF110]

Kinda weird considering that the Lola has the fender size to run the wide fronts, as shown by the Dyson. So I take it Rebellion will follow suit. Maybe just a different philosophy.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

Kinda weird considering that the Lola has the fender size to run the wide fronts, as shown by the Dyson. So I take it Rebellion will follow suit. Maybe just a different philosophy.

Rebellion is using the wide front Michelins since 2011

[gwyllion]

Like predicted the smaller fuel tank is hurting the Audis.

Originally Posted by Tom Kristensen

Generally we are pretty happy and we were fastest in the night. It is a tough race and you need to be spot-on. It looks like the other cars in the P1 class can go further on their fuel than we can. So that could be a strategic advantage for them in the race.

source: http://americanlemans.com/articles/k...night-practice

[TF110]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Rebellion is using the wide front Michelins since 2011

Follow suit with using the new car? I guess that slipped past your selective reading.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

Follow suit with using the new car? I guess that slipped past your selective reading.

No, the Lola B11/60 from Rebellion already had the wide front Michelins in 2011. When they get the 2012 update package at Spa, the car will look the same as the Lola B12/60 from Dyson, albeit with a roof air intake, and still use wide front tyres.

The point I am trying to make, is that both the old (2011) and new (2012) Rebellion Lola run the wide front tyres.

[TF110]

Yes, I understand what you're saying. I was saying they will follow suit with the new car. I meant that they'll continue using the wider front tires. Just sying that Spa would be where they'll show their new coupe, obviously as they have to, correct?

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Like predicted the smaller fuel tank is hurting the Audis.
source: http://americanlemans.com/articles/k...night-practice

Audi couldn't got as far on fuel at LM as Peugeot could, but still compensated by being faster though out much of the race, and the R18s are still tons faster (at least on a clear track) than anything else. And remember that Bentley was in the same spot at LM in '03--the couldn't quite match the range of the R8s but were still faster by enough of a degree that it wasn't a major disadvantage.

I think that Audi are sort of in the same situation as LM--slow down and get better range, or run flat out and sacrifice range. Could this be the effect of running the 2011 cars at Sebring with their draggier bodywork and engines perhaps not of the same spec as the 2012 e-tron or ultra...or BoP politicking by Audi, or both?

After all, Pescarolo already has come with guns loaded for Audi and Toyota for running hybrid systems on their 2012 spec cars--and his team hopes to run a hybrid system in the future.

One race hasn't been run and already the whinging of about performance balancing has begun.

In the end on fuel mileage, it might not win or lose the race for everyone, but it may be able to allow some of the faster gasoline engined cars a break as far as staying on the lead lap early, when most of the yellows are expected.

[The Badger]

One thing I am happy about is , the P1 and P2 Lola's will look differant , because of the wider fronts only being allowed on the P1 cars ..... good .

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The LMP1 cars with Dunlop tyres (Dyson Lola and Oak Pescarolo) use 36/71-18 all around. See e.g. http://www.dysonracing.com/cars/

Okay, according to http://www.86400.fr/articles/213-seb...vail-sur-la-p2 Oak is not using the wide front Dunlops like Dyson.

It seems that the two cars, P1 and P2, also have exactly the same body?
"Exactly, no. Small details set them apart from each other. But it is true that they are very close."

While Dyson went to the wide front tires on their new Lola, you stay on the conventional width. Why?
"We tested the wide tires during the 2010-2011 winter but we did not find them so interesting. The advantage was not decisive. In fact, I am a bit wary of the effects of this trend."

But do you not fear that Dunlop will neglect a little the development of these classic width tires because of the arrival of these wide tires?
"No, absolutely not. We are development partners of Dunlop and this partnership is very strong. I have absolutely no fear on that side ..."

A quick summary:

• narrow front tires: HPD ARX-03a, Pescarolo 01, Oak Pescarolo
• wide front tires: Audi R18, Aston Martin AMR-One, Peugeot 908, Rebellion Lola B11/60, Lola B12/60, Toyota TS030, Dome S102.5, Pescarolo 03