Nissan LMP1 Discussion

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by TF110

A high top speed needs to come with super acceleration. They wont hang with Porsche or Toyota pumping out 900-1000+hp for their bursts of speed. Unless Nissan's engine is super efficient, like diesel level efficient, they wont be near powerful enough considering the hybrid problems. Maybe it turns around and they have some crazy numbers by LM?

If they wanted an engine on the cheap, it might not be very impressive, but if they allowed Cosworth a reasonable budget, I wouldn't bet against Cosworth.

Power/consumption considerations aside, if it is a successful low-drag solution, for a given power output, it will accelerate faster and reach a higher top speed than a "normal" drag car. Of course if it doesn't have the same launch power as the others, that would be a handicap, but isn't the Audi 2MJ?

[YorkshireLad]

Vauxhall combo 1.3 CDTI Deisel, cheap, bomb proof. I get 60mpg.

[GasperG]

... and 17s to 60 mph, Prius is like a rocket compared to that

[Trebor123]

Originally Posted by miatanut

Power/consumption considerations aside, if it is a successful low-drag solution, for a given power output, it will accelerate faster and reach a higher top speed than a "normal" drag car. Of course if it doesn't have the same launch power as the others, that would be a handicap, but isn't the Audi 2MJ?

The 2015 Audi has moved up one energy class and is now 4MJ, while still meeting the weight target of 870 kg:

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-new...nger-revealed/

[BRG]

If Nissan fail to get the kers system to work at all, and are entered in the 2MJ class. Do the regulations say they actually have to lug a non functioning kers system around the track or can it be removed.

[Trebor123]

Originally Posted by BRG

If Nissan fail to get the kers system to work at all, and are entered in the 2MJ class. Do the regulations say they actually have to lug a non functioning kers system around the track or can it be removed.

Factory teams entering LMP1 are only permitted to field a hybrid, so yes they would have to lug a Some form of energy recovery system around the track, plus this needs to be actually functional - at least during the pre-race scrutineering.

If you look for loopholes in the regulations: The four energy classes allow for a release of energy, per lap, UP TO the stated number of MJ (2,4,6 or 8). There is no advantage in running at less than the limit (unless overweight) because the reduction in the fuel allowed is a constant for each class.

So it may be possible to run with only exhaust-energy recovery, or a KERS that recovered only a tiny proportion of the energy during braking and still stay within the regulations but track performance would be penalised and more fuel stops would be required.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by BRG

If Nissan fail to get the kers system to work at all, and are entered in the 2MJ class. Do the regulations say they actually have to lug a non functioning kers system around the track or can it be removed.

Audi lugged theirs around and won Le Mans last year. but yes I think the car has to be homologated with a system in place and then go through tech at the track with the same system.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by knighty

Right, so your saying the KERS system, which was designed as an 8MJ system, its now performing in an 8MJ manner in the car, on the track - yes????......sorry but not even Bowlby himself has said that, quite the opposite actually......they initially said 8MJ, then systematically down-graded that to 2MJ in a series of press interviews once they had realized the magnitude of the brown stuff they were all standing in without a boat or paddle.......the 8MJ system weighs in the region of 100Kg.....if its then later only proven to be capable to 2MJ only, then they will be carrying a truck load of excess weight which will make their already existing over-weight situation even worse......bench tests and track tests are two different things completely......the problems I hear are serious track based issues with the KERS

No. I'm saying that changes needed to be made, were done, and things are fine.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by miatanut

I DID notice the word "reasonable" in there.

What is the ratio of time on the straights vs time in the twisties at Le Mans? 5:1?

They would have to lose a TON of time on the twisties to overcome a small advantage on the straights. The turns are all different speeds, but, over-simplyfing to illustrate a point, if it's 5:1, it would take being 25 KPH down in an average twisty to give up a 5 KPH advantage on the straights.

Even then, we are ignoring an important point. If you are qualifying, minimum lap time is very important. In a race, the P1's spend a good deal of time bottled-up in a turn behind a GT. You see risky dive-bomb passing moves right before a turn by P1's trying to avoid that. If the Nissan is as slow as a GT through the twisties, a lot of the time in the race, it's won't really lose time in the twisties, but then on a long straight, it can use its low-drag concept to gain a few seconds on a typical P1.

It ends up being a marginal qualifying car, but a good car to have in a race.

That's not how it works. All the straights have a corner at the beginning of them. You would have to be an absolute missile to manage 5kph higher average speed on the straight starting in a 25kph hole.

Can you name me any non-oval track where there is more time spent in corners than on straights? If it was like that why on Earth would race cars have as much as three times as much drag as street cars? Why wouldn't the ByKolles be the fastest car in LMP1?

The whole reason the current LMPs are the way they are at Le Mans is because they've reached the point where they can't remove enough drag in a downforce efficient way to have enough speed in the last third of the straight to make up what they lose over around the first two thirds (and no there's not much advantage in blowing by GT cars at 45mph speed deltas that you could have passed half a kilometre ago at something sane). Nissan is trying to move that tipping point but I suspect a lot of it depended on having the 8MJ hybrid to boost them up to speed early on the straight.

[J Jay]

Hey hey, Darren Cox has decided to weigh in on the grid girl deb- no not really, but here is Pruett's Racer article having spoken to him for an update on the GT-R LMP1.

Of note are the resumption of as much testing as possible now that the crash test has been passed, staying in the US for "at least four more days" of testing before heading to Europe (England to be precise).

[CTD]

Is the rule of the hybrid system needing to, as minimum power the car down the full length of the Le Mans pit, still in force?

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

That's not how it works. All the straights have a corner at the beginning of them. You would have to be an absolute missile to manage 5kph higher average speed on the straight starting in a 25kph hole.

Can you name me any non-oval track where there is more time spent in corners than on straights? If it was like that why on Earth would race cars have as much as three times as much drag as street cars? Why wouldn't the ByKolles be the fastest car in LMP1?

The whole reason the current LMPs are the way they are at Le Mans is because they've reached the point where they can't remove enough drag in a downforce efficient way to have enough speed in the last third of the straight to make up what they lose over around the first two thirds (and no there's not much advantage in blowing by GT cars at 45mph speed deltas that you could have passed half a kilometre ago at something sane). Nissan is trying to move that tipping point but I suspect a lot of it depended on having the 8MJ hybrid to boost them up to speed early on the straight.

My first point is it is highly unlikely they are starting in a 25 KPH hole. The underbodies of these cars are highly regulated. Everybody has basically the same undertray. From that, the underbodies of these cars should be generating similar downforce. Any cornering deficiencies this car has should result from the smaller total tire contact patches and the reduced rear wing downforce. This car has the choice to run as much or as little rear wing as they choose. They have chosen a lot less rear wing than the other cars, which they presumably would not choose to do if it put them at a disadvantage over the course of a lap.

Second, this car is a very low drag concept. Yes, the other cars are trimmed-out as much as they can be. The other cars are rectangular cars. This car, appears to humans, as a rectangular car. To the air, it is not. Because of the tunnels and the tapering of the car at the back, to the air, this car is shaped like a teardrop. The ideal aerodynamic shape. That is a HUGE advantage. It means that this car produces significantly less drag, and for most of the long straights, the primary load on the engine is not accelerating the mass. It's pushing air out of the way. If you have a car that is spending a lot less of its engine power pushing air out of the way, it can accelerate faster and reach a higher speed with the same power.

All that is theory though. The big blast from the KERS to get up to speed faster, and enjoy a several KPH advantage down most of the straight because of the low drag, was a critical part of the concept. If the KERS doesn't operate as planned, that's a significant compromise to the concept.

[gustavobamba]

I don´t understand very much all the 4 hybrid systems that will contest at le mans this year but… is it possible to Nissan to change the hybrid system for next year in order to make this superlowdrag concept to work at is full potential?

If this is true ( drop shape aero) have the best Drag Coefficient… Nissan just have to find the perfect hybrid solution…right?!?!?!?

What makes sense to me his this:

- IF the concept work around the shape of the car they should test (before go public) several hybrid solution´s to find the best to deal with the car shape

- because hybrid is very tricky to set up they should test this in race condition´s before le Mans.

- Once they have all in the right places… go racing for a couple of year´s to gain experince and try to win it

[TF110]

Originally Posted by miatanut

My first point is it is highly unlikely they are starting in a 25 KPH hole. The underbodies of these cars are highly regulated. Everybody has basically the same undertray. From that, the underbodies of these cars should be generating similar downforce. Any cornering deficiencies this car has should result from the smaller total tire contact patches and the reduced rear wing downforce. This car has the choice to run as much or as little rear wing as they choose. They have chosen a lot less rear wing than the other cars, which they presumably would not choose to do if it put them at a disadvantage over the course of a lap.

Second, this car is a very low drag concept. Yes, the other cars are trimmed-out as much as they can be. The other cars are rectangular cars. This car, appears to humans, as a rectangular car. To the air, it is not. Because of the tunnels and the tapering of the car at the back, to the air, this car is shaped like a teardrop. The ideal aerodynamic shape. That is a HUGE advantage. It means that this car produces significantly less drag, and for most of the long straights, the primary load on the engine is not accelerating the mass. It's pushing air out of the way. If you have a car that is spending a lot less of its engine power pushing air out of the way, it can accelerate faster and reach a higher speed with the same power.

All that is theory though. The big blast from the KERS to get up to speed faster, and enjoy a several KPH advantage down most of the straight because of the low drag, was a critical part of the concept. If the KERS doesn't operate as planned, that's a significant compromise to the concept.

The rear wing looks like the same two element design the others have. The underbody is not all spec. The teams have the front diffuser strakes to design as they feel. Thats probably the biggest area these guys can make gains. Then you see each team has a different philosophy on the front wing/diffuser. It remains to be seen if Nissan's solution works better if even as good. FWD will not trump AWD. They'll have to compensate somehow before the rear hybrid works. I dont think they can.

[hondafan37]

Laurent Mercier asks if there will be 3 Nissan Le Mans.
http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/har...gt-r-lm-nismo/

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

Laurent Mercier asks if there will be 3 Nissan Le Mans.
http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/har...gt-r-lm-nismo/

Here comes the Viper, woohoo!

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by TF110

The underbody is not all spec. The teams have the front diffuser strakes to design as they feel. Thats probably the biggest area these guys can make gains. Then you see each team has a different philosophy on the front wing/diffuser. It remains to be seen if Nissan's solution works better if even as good. FWD will not trump AWD. They'll have to compensate somehow before the rear hybrid works. I dont think they can.

As the Nissan team has said, there is some room to play at the front. The back is highly regulated, and everybody is doing the max allowed by the rules, so everybody ends up with the same back underbody.

We've seen all sorts of rear wings on this car, so we don't know what they are using, but we can reasonably assume the rear wing they will use at Le Mans is different from the one they will use at COTA.

This is a car with a very different performance envelope from the others, so they are probably going to have to modify it more between low and high downforce circuits than the others, because the whole concept was built with Le Mans in mind.

[Simmi]

I'm not the guy to do it but this image is pretty much begging to be taken apart.

[Victor_RO]

^I reckon Sir Chris himself has already come up with the best answer.

[carbon_titanium]

well, let's say that nissan found a way to improve car's reliability.
Afterall in the regulamentation isn't expressly banned this...

[J Jay]

At least the extra tyres are skinny, as per the original design. when they're putting down more power than the rears are anyway that's some mean feat.

But for someone as innovative as Bowlby I'm a bit disappointed to see him so brazenly copying the T34...

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

^I reckon Sir Chris himself has already come up with the best answer.

I see the Straka Dome in the background!
Does this means Nissan is at Silverstone?

[J Jay]

Yeah, Nissan said they were going to bring a car as part of their Silverstone fan meet.

It just won't be lining up at the start of the race, for reasons discussed at length in this thread.

[Simmi]

They've got both show cars in the garage.

[GT6]

Originally Posted by Simmi

They've got both show cars in the garage.

So i get to see them tomorrow