What's happening to motorsport?

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

See ive done my bit to be a "helpful organisor"

Someone wanted to enter the race at Brands, but had only just put in a new engine in their car and has had no real time to test it, so, we (believing YOU are our CUSTOMERS) agreed to let them pay some of the entry with a view to them qualifying, if the car is fine and dandy and they complete qualifying, then they will pay the balance and take the grid ...if on the other hand, it all goes a bit pete tong for them, they will not take the grid and they go home....thereby its a win all round because, this competitor was not going to enter as the full entry was a risk,but, this way, it works for us both.

Now, these little things may not make a big difference but it is a way of treating you the customer as exactly that. One thing that is so obvious from this thread is that drivers, in truth, want to be treated as customers...want to feel loved for want of a better word and I think that is may be what is lacking now in Motorsport.....so thats why we at 360....give you a hug!



In this day and age this type of thinking can be done and may have to be done.

Trouble is, he law of sod says that said newly repaired car does four corners of lap one of qualifying before dumping all its oil on the racing line and all over the track, stopping qualifying for the rest of the competitors and putting a big hole in the timetable. The rest of the competitors are very unhappy and all you get is flack about why you allowed it to happen....

I can't count the times I've done something helpful to see if all self destruct around me

I still do it though, but have the hard hat to the ready!

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by midgetman

2 for fewer, bigger meetings. 1 for sticking with one club but racing more often.

I think the fewer the meetings, the bigger they would be. But we are talking saloons, sportscars/historics here. The dynamic is different for single seaters.

[johngee]

I've kept silent on this thread but have been following the debate with more than a passing interest.

My comments, for what they're worth are:

1. The community of 10/10ths, great though it is, is far too small to make any kind of value judgement on the future of motorsport either in the UK or further afield. Claire Smith and I could have gone broke on the basis of the enthusiasm and promised support, on here, for the first 6 hour race (and I say that without any rancour).
2. Even on here, there are those who want short, sharp races; those who want longer races; those who want to 'belong' to a club; those who want to 'cherry pick' their events; those who want (or are able) to travel to different circuits; those who like the 'big' events etc.etc...... the list goes on and on.
3. My initial reaction to the suggestion of some sort of survey conducted by or through the MSA was that it had merit but, on the other hand, they have their 'we've always done it this way' culture to overcome ..... and it would be good to get an answer in our lifetimes.
4. We (as in 360MRC) have our own culture, well expressed by Claire, in attitude and 'customer care' but, although we have well developed plans to continue and expand, we are also realistic in our ability to 'change the world'.
5. We all know the largest cost of racing is venue hire and, whilst I'm not a apologist for MSV, Castle Combe or Donington, I would like to say that they have a similar culture to our own and their circuits and people are light years away from the dark days of 10/15 years ago. Unfortunately, quality costs money and motorsport is not a cheap hobby, however you look at it. There is no free lunch and the world owes us.....nothing and it's a 'free market' economy!

I'm not that sure this will move the debate further?

[The Fat Clerk]

I'm not that sure this will move the debate further?[/QUOTE]

As ever John, you're saying what others (myself included) are thinking.

[Peter Mallett]

I concur, although if we don't discuss things, there's little point in having a discussion forum.

[Al Weyman]

A moderator attacking the poster Peter?

How am I jealous and of who?

On the oil thing you don't have a clue what you are talking about I have never shared a track with you, oh yes I ruptured the sump at Brands going down the dip and left oil all round the track, then had had several of engines let go over the years so what, one sold to me by a 'friend' that just wasn't what he said it was and blew after 5 laps, some incidents of oil getting on manifolds looking a lot worse than it was and I lost a rad cap once and spewed water not oil on the track have you never had any of the above happen if not lucky you?

Tank capacity??? Blimey whats that got to do with the price of eggs? I built the car for ModProds not to do long races simples and when I built it I didnt have a clue how much fuel it would use, the meeting at Donny this weekend was meant to be two 20mins and one 25min and has now been changed to a 20 and a 40 or I wouldnt have entered but because I support the organisers I am still doing it and will probably not finish the race but s what or I could do what others would and cancel after throwing my toys out the pram. I would have taken my old car as it has a bigger tank so no problem but unfortunately it's sick.

[Peter Mallett]

If you have any complaints about my post, please use the appropriate buttons.

Other than that I stand by my statements.

[Al Weyman]

I wouldn't be so petty, you obviously don't know me as well as you assume you do.

[andy97]

Hmmm, I think some people on this thread are starting to get a bit personal and that's making me uncomfortable and would probably put off the casual reader who is thinking of posting something constructive. I thoughts Tenths was largely better than that.

Anyway to answer Midgetman's question, I prefer:

4-6 x 40 min to 1 hour races a year for one or two drivers and maybe 2-3 very local and very cheap meetings (2-3 sprint races per meeting) at some where like Silverstone Stowe to get my fix in between times. I definitely want to share the car in the longer races to help with costs.

I don't want to travel far or stay overnight unless absolutely necessary so the circuits I'd choose are Donington, Mallory, Silverstone, Oulton (and I'm fortunate to live in the middle of those), with a couple of "away" trips to Snetterton and Anglesey (the best circuit in the country and not to be missed).

I don't want to go abroad - not even to Spa - too expensive and too time consuming. Daft as it may sound, I don't even want to go to Brands because of the hours I have spent in a queue at the Dartford Crossing.

I want the entry fees to be as cheap as practically possible so I am not interested in hospitality etc and I'd like to be able to share costs. I'd also like to "amortise" the cost of the travel to the circuits over the slightly the longer races ie more race time for the travel money.

If 1 or 2 of the races were 2 hours then that would be perfect.

I want to race in and with cars that are not massively sophisticated so no aero, no slicks and no sequentials and are "club level" type cars and by that I mean definitely sub Britcar.

I don't care in the slightest about a "Championship" but I do want to race with mostly the same type of people, and to get to know and trust them.

[Paul D]

Well, if nothing else, this thread proves one thing for sure: there's a very diverse range of opinions and desires out there. This is probably also part of the problem, as it comes down to the old "you can't please all of the people, all of the time".

FWIW, I prefer the longer races, and although I'd rather not have pit stops, I appreciate they're necessary if people are changing drivers. However, I'd like to see any competitive element removed from this by simply having a mandatory stationary time that's long enough for those changing drivers to get it done - say 45 seconds. I've tried both styles, and the fixed time makes more sense to me than this palava of getting out of the car, just to get back in again, and running the risk of something going wrong or being delayed because you've got no one to assist you that day, when some of the other guys have got three or four pit crew assisting them!

I know some people prefer short, sharp races, but I don't think you can have this and lower entry fees (pro-rata). The reason being that if we look at the cost of circuit hire as a daily rate, then the more of that day spent under actual racing conditions, the better value for the driver (on a £ per minute scale). If you run 10 or 15 minute races, with 10 or 15 minutes 'dead time' between races, then at least 50% of your day's hire is wasted on dead time. But if you run 45 minute races, with the same 10 or 15 minutes dead time between each one, then only 25% of your hire fee is wasted. Surely, if managed correctly, this has got to equal more track time for your money?

On the subject of money - done correctly and efficiently, with decent grids, I don't think we should be expected to pay any more than about £250 - £300 max at any circuit for a format of something like 25 - 30 minutes qualy and a 40 - 45 mintue race.

I get the argument about two or three short races being better than one long one if you have some kind of problem, but I think you have to accept that it'll cost more (per minute) than one longer race, for reasons outlined above.

Some people have said that entry fees are irrelevant to them, but I simply don't agree with that if you're on a tight budget. For the club racer running on tight funds, I reckon by far your two biggest ongoing cost considerations are entry fees and fuel (I'm working on the assumption that you're prepping the car yourself). And by fuel, I mean both for the race car and for getting there and back.

At current rates, I reckon a typical meeting costs me around £700 all-in. That's everything barring crash damage or mechanical damage. Of that, £500+ goes towards entry fee & fuel!

[andy97]

Paul, Bang on.

[Lancsbreaker]

Pretty much matches my thoughts, Andy (and Paul, who snuck a post in while I was typing!)...apart from living in the Midlands, obviously......in the three years I raced with CSCC we raced at Snett (too frequently, too far IMHO), Brands (another long trek but I did get to celebrate my 60th racing on the GP circuit ), Donington, Mallory, Cadwell, Rockingham, Silverstone (yawn), Anglesey and of course Oulton.

Unfortunately I'm one of those who hasn't been able to afford to race last year or this, tho I haven't given up hope.....but if I resume its likely to have to be mainly at the more local tracks, tho hopefully mainly with CSCC as they are a friendly bunch and the races being 40 minutes do give better value for money. Of course I'd like fees to be cheaper, but I'd also like petrool to be cheaper, and more people to buy Alfa parts off me at decent money......but I don't hold my breath waiting.

[midgetman]

Richard, you echo my post. It's not only the money for me but also the time involved - what with weekend work and now Alex's karting a weekend "off" is a precious commodity which is why I'd prefer to pay more and get more value. But as you all know, it doesn't mean I'm rich, quite the reverse, just so tight fisted that every single penny must give the most entertainment.

Combe is only 14 miles away from me and I've found myself working there again, but the thought of paying three hundred quid or so for fifteen minutes does not attract me, so I'd rather pay more and travel further. Silver-yawn is close, but beyond Alex and me sharing a borrowed ZR on the GP track at MG Live next year "just to say we've done it", it holds no attraction for us.

Anyway, at last some thought on how to go forwards instead of just saying what's wrong!

[Al Weyman]

I don't even want to go to Brands because of the hours I have spent in a queue at the Dartford Crossing.

Andy as an aside, I live in Watford at the bottom end of the M1 so its about 10 miles more going south round the M25 than going north and paying for and queing for the tunnel which I have been stuck in for 2 hours before so me and Cliff Ryan who lives round the corner always go south now as it works out quicker in the long run despite the extra few miles so you may want to concider this option, better still go down the M40 and then it will be no extra distance at all.

Max were is the £300 for a 15 minute race, it hasn't got that bad yet has it? CTCRC/BARC double headers are 15 mins qually and two 15 min races for the £300 and a further £105 if you want another race which generally will be 15 qually and 20 min race. Unfortunately I often did this with my old car as it was elligible for the two similar disciplines of Post Historics and Group one, sadly this year they have been amalgated and in a bit of a sorry state so that was not possible this year leaving the only other race to enter pre 93's.

[midgetman]

I stand corrected Al, it's only £230 at Combe for the last race of the year. Sorry for scaremongering.

[terence]

230 for 15 minutes? makes the 360s 2hr sound cheap!

[Al Weyman]

Back to the pound per track minute thing then but I think its clear here that some like that format but many don't. I think at the end of the day its all.about what car you own as to what format you prefer. I do agree though £230 ain't cheap for 15 minutes is it?

[simes43]

The 750mc have sold the Formula4 name to MSV.

All that is needed now is 20 kids with 70 to 100k in
their back pocket.

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Back to the pound per track minute thing then but I think its clear here that some like that format but many don't. I think at the end of the day its all.about what car you own as to what format you prefer. I do agree though £230 ain't cheap for 15 minutes is it?

I don't think that it's a 'format' as such. It's just a yardstick of costing track time and a fact of pure economics. Short races, with the attendent 'lost time' before and after the scheduled race duration, are always more expensive 'per minute' than longer races. As you say, it's a matter of personal choice or dictated by the type of race car employed.

[Al Weyman]

Exactly, if I had a Golf Diesel all suited and booted and ready to go I would probably have joined you at Brands as it is I have an old V8 so I am up to Donington.

[indigorallye]

I'm going to go right off on a tangent here.
Motorsport is governed by an organisation that, as far as I can see, doesn't really care about clubman motorsport. They spend all of our money promoting series which I couldn't care less about.
It's always about youngsters making the next step.
Well what about us? I don't want to make the next step. I'm happy where I am. I just want the cost to come down a little bit. Not a lot as I know that's not possible, but just a bit.
Just enough so that I can carry on racing.

So, the problem with motorsport, for me, is cost. Nothing more nothing less.
If that can be reduced then great. If not then I will struggle on for as long as possible to the point where I will have to sell up to try and clear the debts I'm racking up.

[Al Weyman]

I have no debts and certainly wouldn't get in to debt to participate if I got to that stage then that would be it.

[indigorallye]

Lucky you.
My racing is paid for by any bits of overtime I can get at work.
Sometimes my budget goes a little awry. Upgrades for the car etc etc

[Al Weyman]

Luck never came into it, hard work did.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Luck never came into it, hard work did.

And being of an age where buying something to live in didn't initially cost you half the national debt of an emerging country?