Vettel To The Metal. Vettel/Webber/Hamilton incident.

[trevisio]

This is such a ridiculously contrived and annoying development! I find it truly shocking and annoying that blatant manipulation of our so called sport consistently happens like this. There should be a world governing body of all sport to govern the individual sports governing bodies that way this sort of nonsensical rubbish would have been stopped long long ago. Sometimes I am ashamed to be interested in F1 it is so obviously not a level playing field even without this sort of idiotic interference in the results.

[pottiella]

bravo Adam...was that your rant or my rant btw?! Either way, I probably should have added your bit to my original post to appear more "balanced", eh?

[Adam43]

You highlighted another example that broke the camels back, or lit the blue touch paper, or, er, I need to lie down.

[Chiefy]

As a PS to my earlier post: was it in this thread that someone mentioned the banning of the YouTube video posted by a spectator at the Japanese GP?

I watched an episode of Jeremy Clarkson's Motorworld the other day and he was in Monte Carlo for the Grand Prix. The race was ready to start by the end of the show but he said that while he would be sticking around to watch it he wasn't allowed to show us any footage - because of F1's (or FOM's) copyrights. With that he bid us goodbye and the credits rolled. So my understanding is that Bernie Ecclestone and nobody else is allowed to own or use footage without his permission. It's not a dig at BE - I just think that's how it works.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by Chiefy

I watched an episode of Jeremy Clarkson's Motorworld the other day and he was in Monte Carlo for the Grand Prix. The race was ready to start by the end of the show but he said that while he would be sticking around to watch it he wasn't allowed to show us any footage - because of F1's (or FOM's) copyrights. With that he bid us goodbye and the credits rolled. So my understanding is that Bernie Ecclestone and nobody else is allowed to own or use footage without his permission. It's not a dig at BE - I just think that's how it works.

You're right. FOM will have ordered the removal of said clip from Youtube.

[Mr V]

Bernie must be losing his touch, because the Hamilton/Fuji clip is still on there

[CATMAN]

As an Aussie resident I'll just say typical whinging Aussie and TSF should be dispatched to sell onions for the next two races and 2008.

Any action against Lewis is unjust and will only make F1 a bigger joke.
The leader at the front has a race to win and in the conditions he has to do all he can to protect the cars viability and position.
Those behinds job is to look out for the guy in front and avoid him, if that means holding back further due to the man in fronts action you keep out of his way or pay the consequence!

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by NAC

Poll option 1

How is this Hamiltons fault. He nearlly went up the back of the SC himself and pulled off to the side. This was not one of Hamiltons most erratic moves behind the SC

Maybe, had Lewis not "booted" the throttle, he wouldn't have got anywhere near the safety car? Just a thought.

[CATMAN]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Bernie must be losing his touch, because the Hamilton/Fuji clip is still on there

Bernie is not bothered about F1 footage being shown providing he gets a big payment

[pottiella]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

You highlighted another example that broke the camels back, or lit the blue touch paper, or, er, I need to lie down.

you best not stick around on this forum for too much longer if that's the case...who knows what the next 3 weeks of "debating" will do to you!

I forgot to mention...oh to be a fly on the wall at the driver's briefing!!

[Rory]

Originally Posted by johnh875

The Youtube video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=8hWIfBkVQUk) has now been taken down after a copyright claim by F1 Management! Given it was a spectator's video on what grounds could they do this? Obviously they would have a claim if the video were used for commercial purposes but I hardly think posting it on Youtube qualifies as that. Conspiracy theory would suggest it is to reduce its impact on whatever decision they might make relating to Hamilton, but hopefully they will have a hard time keeping it surpressed (have it d/l'd myself).

BBC News 24 just showed it about a dozen times. Is Bernie and co gonna take on the might of the British Broadcasting Corporation and slap a $100m lawsuit on them too?

[pottiella]

Originally Posted by Rory

BBC News 24 just showed it about a dozen times. Is Bernie and co gonna take on the might of the British Broadcasting Corporation and slap a $100m lawsuit on them too?

of course not silly...F1 is getting heavy airtime on a hugely watched channel...it would be insanity to stop that!

[bosch!]

Can the stewards actualy penalise points earned at a previous event? Surely this is way out of their juristiction as the result has been made official a long time since.

I wouldnt even have thought that they have any standing to look into it, has to be an issue for the FIA if anything.

Can they re-open the Ferrari tyre debarcle 'cause that was dangerous to the whole field

[Rory]

Originally Posted by trevisio

This is such a ridiculously contrived and annoying development! I find it truly shocking and annoying that blatant manipulation of our so called sport consistently happens like this. There should be a world governing body of all sport to govern the individual sports governing bodies that way this sort of nonsensical rubbish would have been stopped long long ago. Sometimes I am ashamed to be interested in F1 it is so obviously not a level playing field even without this sort of idiotic interference in the results.

Well said that man (or woman)! Actually, this may well be a watershed for the FIA. Should they take the now obvious route of punishing Lewis, they will be rubber stamping their ridiculous handling of governing F1, belittling it to no more than some 'Big Brother' or 'X Factor' series where votes are rigged, footage is staged, and generally, the paying public are treated like a bunch of moronic farts.

In any other form of motorsport, the drivers involved in an incident would have a stern warning in a seperate meeting with the Chief Steward, knuckles wrapped and told not to do it again. But such is the pantomime that is F1, such is the blatancy of it's commercial puppeteering through Bernie Eccelstone and Mad Max, we have bans, fines, points deductions and disqualifications metted out at the drop of a hat and at the slightest non-incident.

Last Sunday's crash involving Webber was avoidable - of course it was. But fundementally, Vettel crashed into Webber and if, for example, Lewis had actually suffered mechanical failure and being slowing for real - he'd STILL have hit Webber. Therefore, Vettel should learn, like most Cadet kart racer upwards do, to pay attention.

I really can see a 10 place grid penalty for Lewis for no other reason that it's more easy than actually doing the job they're all employed to do. Mickey Moused governing of a truly magic sport is what turned me off F1 years ago, only to be re-awoken by Lewis and McLaren's resurgence this year. But the FIA are hellbent on giving it to McLaren as hard as they possibly can - humped til they can take no more.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Rory

Last Sunday's crash involving Webber was avoidable - of course it was. But fundementally, Vettel crashed into Webber

At Monza 2000, Michael Schumacher did the same thing, causing Jenson Button, who was 6th or 7th iirc to crash, though unpunished, Michael was very much seen as the person who should take the blame.

Originally Posted by Rory

I really can see a 10 place grid penalty for Lewis for no other reason that it's more easy than actually doing the job they're all employed to do.

If the FIA/stewards do this, and i'm not saying they should, then, as they have set a precident before - Juan Pablo Montoya, Monaco 2005 caused an accident behind him by stamping on the brakes, then Lewis should, as Juan Pablo was, be sent to the back of the grid, not docked 10 places.

[alonso11]

a few years ago there was a guy who got his hand on 16 tapes, on them 64 hours (!) footage from an f1 race (wont say wich GP was it), he digitalized the whole thing, burned it to dvds and went on selling them. it was a CCTV footage and it involved on-track action only (basically it shown what happend on track in each and every corner during the race)

in the light of that i really wonder what on earth would make the FIA or (any of the teams for that matter) rely on such a poor quality private video. i just dont get it.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by alonso11

in the light of that i really wonder what on earth would make the FIA or (any of the teams for that matter) rely on such a poor quality private video. i just dont get it.

Well, maybe the guy you refer to wasn't available and this private video is all that is available to them

[Bononi]

True, actually I believe there are people in the staff which are designated to browse youtube for that...

[rocketracer]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

I agree with Martin Brundle's coment that Lewis Hamilton was being "silly" behind the SC and someone should have a word with him. However it wasn't the Vettel incident that provokes that most it was many other incidents that were on the TV at the time. All of which they ignored.

completely agree with this.

it seems to me as thus:

1. many people noticed lewis' driving antics were a bit off, and needed some sort of attention. The drivers have been quite unanimous against lewis, with not only MW, SV, FA (all of whom have motives), but also NH, JB, RK, etc etc, and also Martin B amongst others all noting that the erratic nature of the lead driving was causing havoc, and danger through the field.

2. the above point, and the youtube footage now justifies a legitimate investigation into the way safety cars are handled from herein.

3. so the only 2 real questions are:

a) did lewis breach any existing rules?

b) if not, how can the stewards and the FIA mandate that this sort of driving gets stamped out so that a more serious accident does not occur in the future...


As posted back on page 6, under article article 40.7 Any car being driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or which is deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers at any time whilst the safety car is deployed will be reported to the stewards. This will apply whether any such car is being driven on the track, the pit entry or the pit lane.

as Adam said, i dont think the crash incident was lewis' worst incident. And i believe he breached the rules more significantly previous to this incident, and should probably have been pulled up on it then.

I felt that a proper review of the footage would prove: that lewis went farther than 5 car lengths regularly, was driving erratically and unnecessarily slowly, causing danger to other drivers.

So i do think he deserves a penalty. However, ironically, not necessarily for the accident footage.


Slightly off topic: who was the last driver to be penalised for falling more than 5 car lengths behind the safety car? why does montoya, canada circa 2003 ring a bell? if i recall, whoever the driver was, served a drive through penalty.

[rocketracer]

Originally Posted by REALIST

It looked to me, through 'Raikonnen tinted glasses' that Hamilton was deliberately trying to trap the followers into passing him, in order to get them penalised.

that's exactly what i thought he was doing.

[pottiella]

rocketracer...great objective post!

Yes, I feel his earlier "antics" were probably more punisheable than this one, yet this one gives enough to "investigate"...but of what? The irony being that this probably has weaker arguments for punishing than earlier behaviour from him, and thus might get off. I'm not entirely convinced it boils down to the "5 car length" rule...more in the context of a) what happened, b) was it avoidable, and c) did lewis behave erratically enough for it to have been considered dangerous, such that webber and vettel crashed "seemingly" because of him?

It must be reminded that all of this doesn't come out of Webber and Vettel complaining at all..the footage was forwarded by Tost to the FIA as evidence for appealing Vettel's 10-place penalty - nothing to do with Lewis at all...so it comes down to the FIA Stewards prompting the investigation of their own accord...clearly seeing something worth investigating when looking at the footage.

It's that which interests me, rather than who said what, and who thinks what...

[Dixie Flatline]

Mark Webber had this to say at the presser yesterday:

We know what pace the safety car can do and I accept a little bit that maybe you get a bit bored in that situation because we did a lot of laps and sometimes you get ready to go. It definitely contributed to Sebastian hitting me up the back that we were confused at what the other car was doing because he wasn’t doing what you are supposed to do (behind the safety car). Clearly.

Later in the conference:

I think he did a **** job behind the safety car. He did a **** job and that’s it. He spoke in the drivers’ briefing about how good a job he was going to do and then he did the job the opposite way, so we know for next time, it’s no problem.

He's still miffed at Hamilton.

Full presser here.

[Pro Racer]

seems he was calm early in the press conference explaining things in a nice way and then seemed to get abit hot under the colar and typical MW tell it like it is, he is awesome i wish he had better luck he deserves it.

[JeremySmith]

I have a lot of respect for Mark Webber, he is a straight shooter and an honest bloke. Looking at that piece of video Lewis did take a rather strange line, almost trying to scrub of speed it seems, he almost got right alongside the safety car.

I still do not think it was a deliberate attempt to cause a pile up..

[Dixie Flatline]

May not have been deliberate but the FIA may consider it reckless or negligent of Hamilton to act in the manner that he did, and punish him accordingly.

We'll have to wait and see.