USCC (leave your axe outside)

[Dodge_Swinger]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I would argue that they don't "have" guys like us. Guys like us will only stay if the product is what we like. I think if they continue with DP's and LMP2's, they'll lose a large chunk of guys like us.

I would also argue that the series had enough eyeballs, or nearly enough eyeballs at most of the races. The challenge has been converting those people to watching on TV. More is always better, and that comes down to effective sales and marketing, something the ALMS people failed at miserably. The NASCAR company is very good at marketing typically, but had a product that wasn't particularly saleable IMO.

You have to have a saleable product, and a sales staff that can sell it.

I think that NASCAR has been good at marketing NASCAR. Lockheed Martin is pretty good at marketing expensive fighter aircraft, but I'm not sure I would count on them to successfully market a new personal watercraft.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

I personally know 18-20 NASCAR Fans, mostly here where I live as there's a ton of NASCAR fans in Bermuda. I'm one of them as I watch and support every form of motorsport on both two and for wheels and left and right turns with the exception of perhaps drag racing and drifting.

Only 2 even know about Grand Am, and 1 I introduced to it, but he also knows about ALMS. I really doubt even 5% of NASCAR fans are paying attention to it, and ratings numbers and attendance numbers would show it.

[Purist]

We are in agreement, Dodge. I was a bit round-a-bout, but basically, I was saying that they're NOT going to attract either the Sportscar crowd or the NASCAR crowd to a Grand-Am-like series. However, the Sportscar crowd is larger than the tiny portion of the NASCAR crowd that they could ever even dream of converting to watch Sportscar racing, or even road racing in many cases.

I'm not convinced of their ability to even market the second of those (road racing, of any kind, really), and if they can't, the NA DTM series isn't going to fare any better than GA.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

What they need to do is attain the sports car crowd that currently follows ALMS while gaining more mainstream fans in the future.

Neither ALMS or Grand Am have enough fans to sustain a top series in the long term, but the ALMS fanbase is certainly a better way to start off.

[IndyMeister]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

What they need to do is attain the sports car crowd that currently follows ALMS while gaining more mainstream fans in the future.

Neither ALMS or Grand Am have enough fans to sustain a top series in the long term, but the ALMS fanbase is certainly a better way to start off.

That's the impression on the other side of the Atlantic as well. But maybe that's because European journalists only tend to visit Sebring and the Petit...

I don't now about Grand-Am attendance figures (except Daytona 24H) but everybody assumes that those of the ALMS are higher. But it's difficult to say if someone wants to see ALMS or IndyCar when they are on the same weekend.

Counting empty seats during the TV broadcast is not very professional, is it?

[Dodge_Swinger]

Originally Posted by IndyMeister

That's the impression on the other side of the Atlantic as well. But maybe that's because European journalists only tend to visit Sebring and the Petit...

I don't now about Grand-Am attendance figures (except Daytona 24H) but everybody assumes that those of the ALMS are higher. But it's difficult to say if someone wants to see ALMS or IndyCar when they are on the same weekend.

Counting empty seats during the TV broadcast is not very professional, is it?

It's not just counting empty seats during a TV broadcast. I've been to a lot of ALMS races and two Grand-Am races. Still not scientific, but the crowds at ALMS races are much bigger. This is also what I hear from other people who've attended both. I've also read more than one journalists' comments that the Rolex 24 has almost as many drivers and crew as fans in attendance.

I think you can also get a pretty good sense of the fan situation just from reading message boards like this one. I don't think there would be nearly the sanctimonious (guilty as charged) outrage if the new series said they were ditching DPs and keeping the ALMS class structure as is. I have yet to read a post from a GA fan passionate about the beautiful Riley DPs.

[IndyMeister]

Originally Posted by Dodge_Swinger

I have yet to read a post from a GA fan passionate about the beautiful Riley DPs.

True, true.

I do not question the higher popularity of ALMS at all!

But when it comes down to numbers (and I am no big supporter of argumentations by pure quantity) I just feel it's getting a bit blured.

And believe me: I won't look surprised at all if Grand-Am attendance figures are at the level of club sport events...

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by Dodge_Swinger

I have yet to read a post from a GA fan passionate about the beautiful Riley DPs.

Moreso if a GA fan flips anything from LMPs to DTM cars. Still, they can't polish a DP unless there's a makeover...

Anyway, I hope NASCAR can't fail this series and DTM USA. One small mistake, it can take the France family out in business. (Or so I think.)

[wdave0]

I recall a GA race at Laguna, standing up at the corkscrew looking around and seeing that most of the "spectators" were Cup crews done for the week-end and GA spotters. That's typical of the events I've been to except Daytona which has a manufactured full appearance but might be as many as 40k spectators. NASCAR tried to attract their traditional fans by offering cheap bleacher seats and running shared events at rovals. It didn't work. Interestingly, NASCAR attendance was fading at the same time. Why? Recession for one but also NASCAR recognized that fans didn't like spec car racing so they dumped the COT and created the Gen 6 spec car and for DP created the "Corvette" . Apparently the fans weren't fooled.

Recently at Fontana NASCAR there was a driver feud during the race with aggressive banging, crashing and a broken back. NASCAR management commented that that's how racing should be! Bring on Vince McMahon! Notice their advertising strongly emphasizes crashing - especially for the truck series.

Is this the future of USCR? Now the talk of a very expensive spec car series (DTM); how can that be promoted to survive after the new wears off?

Will management realize that trying to fool the fans might sort of work for mass consumption (lowest common denominator) but won't cut it for sports cars? Easy - all USCR drivers must have nicknames (as in Aussie V8 Utes) like killer, crash, savage, banging is encouraged and "the big one" is the deciding factor of the race.

Man I hope not!!!!!!

[962]

Originally Posted by IndyMeister

True, true.

I do not question the higher popularity of ALMS at all!

But when it comes down to numbers (and I am no big supporter of argumentations by pure quantity) I just feel it's getting a bit blured.

And believe me: I won't look surprised at all if Grand-Am attendance figures are at the level of club sport events...

As to the Riley DP I personaly think it's a great looking car so there's your one person. I've been to alot of IMSA, ALMS and GA events, and up untill about 5 years ago I'd agree that the ALMS events drew bigger crowds but the last five years GA has been on par with ALMS with the exception of Daytona which this last year was by far the largest crowd i've seen at a Sports Car race in 30 years of attending them.

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by 962

As to the Riley DP I personaly think it's a great looking car so there's your one person. I've been to alot of IMSA, ALMS and GA events, and up untill about 5 years ago I'd agree that the ALMS events drew bigger crowds but the last five years GA has been on par with ALMS with the exception of Daytona which this last year was by far the largest crowd i've seen at a Sports Car race in 30 years of attending them.

You must have missed Sebring and Petit Le Mans, each of which are typically in excess of 100K spectators. Daytona hasn't been close to that, they do however keep compressing the crowd to make it look bigger.

[962]

Never been to Sebring but I was at Petit two years ago and it was a great crowd. I'm not sure I see what you mean by compressing the crowd at Daytona, i've been to 15 24's over the last 30 years and can't say I've seen any more restrictions as to where you can go to watch the race. Also you have to remember that ALMS and GA report crowd estimated differently, ALMS counts each pass through the gate for the entire 3-4 day event and GA only counts race day numbers. Not saying that ALMS did'nt draw great numbers at Sebring and Rd Atlanta, just that the numbers don't corelate exactly. Also saying that club events draw more than GA races is just plain inacurate, especially since most club events I've participated in don't even allow spectating due to the fact that at most regional club events there is no insurance.

[IndyMeister]

Originally Posted by 962

Also saying that club events draw more than GA races is just plain inacurate, especially since most club events I've participated in don't even allow spectating due to the fact that at most regional club events there is no insurance.

No hard feelings, please! Because that's not exactly what I said.

And thanks for the clarification on the methods of spectator counting in ALMS and GA. And of course: packed grandstands do not equal good racing...

But I think it's legitimate to ask those questions if one's debating on fan bases.

[Maelochs]

So, the new North American Sports car series, created from the merger of the nearly bankrupt American Le Mans Series (unofficial motto: “Best racing in North America—help us keep it secret”) and the NASCAR-owned Grand Am Rolex Sports Car Series ("There is some actual racing here, but we try to restrain it as best we can") has announced its name: USCR, the United Sports Car Racing series, pronounced “USuckr” by those who marvel at how much was spent devising the name, logo, and at the crippled mish-mosh of rules (which have yet to be fully formulated) for the first two years of the series.

Naturally fans of the two component series argue about which was better, which should dominate the new series, and whatever else each can debate, because that is the nature of competitive people.

Most of the debate misses the most important points.

There are few of those points I’d like to belabor until the death by boredom of all readers here:

Profitability, Popularity, and the proven All-American Sports car Series Success Story (Camel GT and GTP)

Re: attendance:

This all gets silly after a while.

I have been to events from both series and I’d say the crowd at the Rolex 24 is on par with ALMS races save for Sebring and Petit, both of which are significantly larger. I hear about the “attendance” as estimated by the promoters, but I rely more on what I see after walking every inch of the track for two or three days, and I also chat with spectators to get some clue as to how interested they are and how knowledgeable.

Rolex simply doesn’t draw anything near ALMS. On the other hand, Rolex gets much better TV numbers (and offers a much better TV product, which, along with promotion, kind of accounts for all that.)

Profitability

The real issues are profitability. ALMS couldn’t ever make enough money to both satisfy Dr. Panoz and to also satisfy the teams, so the teams got shafted, the promotion was nearly non-existent and generally bungled, and the series went broke.

Had ALMS decided that it was okay to admit that others than the snooty-rich enjoyed the sport, ads might have featured incredible cars piloted by awesome drivers traveling at amazing speeds, and Not cars saving fuel. Coca Col might have sponsored the series, instead of Yancy’s Fancies. ALMS might have bought TV time and actually presented its exciting racing instead of its sponsors’ lame informercials. Dr. Panoz might have bought Grand Am.

However … Well, at least we got the Abruzzi, right?

The Rolex Series also never made a profit. Despite “close” racing (at any cost to legitimacy) It never captured fans’ hearts. Probably because “Sports Car Racing” fans are “Sports Car” fans, and could recognize that however a few folks think they looked, the Rolex cars were emasculated and outdated and constricted by the rulers and the racing was not the form of racing sports car fans tended to love best.

The Rolex Series was not a money-loser because the cars were ugly. The Rolex Series was a money-loser because despite a full-on promotion program and a good TV product, the racing was over-managed and (despite the slightly different body panels and the different badges on the motors) the cars were still spec cars.

Until people are honest enough to admit that That is the main problem, the new series is doomed.

The Proftability/Popularity Nexus

Even Rolex fans were annoyed when the Rolex 24 was handed to Ganassi this year, and annoyed when Shank got shafted because his engine supplier messed up. Other than that, no one cared because sports Car fans don’t care much about a series where a team can be penalized for tuning the motor better—not adding illegal parts or re-programing the ECU or anything, just tuning the motor a little better.

Hot-rodding—making the car run better, dreaming up little bits (a new scoop or fin or wicker or fender, or a new suspension bit or a slightly different fuel map or whatever) has always been the essence for acing—examining the rules, finding everything they allow, and doing everything not forbidden to make the car go faster. That Is Racing.

NASCAR has gambled for over a decade that it could sell sports-car racing to the masses, and that the masses simply don’t care about all that; that the masses will gladly watch identical cars in different liveries so long as there is plenty of bumping and banging. For over a decade they have failed.

Forget the next two years and bickering about DP vs. P2—none of that matters. What matters is what USuckr presents in 2016. Will the 2016 rules allow teams to race real cars, or will it force teams to compete in castrated kit-cars? Will the series let the Cars be the stars, or will the series attempt (as Grand Am has always done) to remove everything except the drivers from the equation and survive by promoting drivers?

That is what will determine the success of the series.

Fresh Fans?

Further: Yes, the new series will need to attract fans from beyond the current ALMS/Rolex fan communities. However: it cannot afford to lose the sports car fan base: that core is simply too great a part of the overall fan pool right now.

Further USuckr cannot hope to attract other race fans with a castrated series. IndyCar fans are a potential source for new fans, and they know All about spec racing, and hate it. NASCAR is probably not a potential fan source, but most of them know about identical kit cars, and have been crying out for more differentiation—and the hard-cores there care about the engineering side of things. Not likely they will be sucked in a by a series more restricted then NASCAR.

As for potential fans who don’t follow much motorsport—This is the toughest nut to crack, and No one knows what will work here, but judging from past successes and failures: a series which offers varied, exciting machinery and world-class drivers can excite sports car fans and that excitement can spread.

What We Know Has Worked

A lot of ALMS fans (myself included) tend to think that the best way forward for USuckr is to include ACO/FIA classes: after all, these cars, drivers, and teams are the best in the sports car world, and their events are at all the historic tracks. Adopting ACO/FIA regulations increases the possibility that some of those teams will join for a few races (as Greaves and Aston Martin did at Sebring, for instance) or even contest the entire season (as rebellion has been doing) in order to get more North American exposure for their sponsors.

The further hope is that some of the factory teams: Audi, Toyota, Porsche, and whichever others join—would consider a north American program, if USuckr proved to be sufficiently popular.

That is indeed one possible route, but let’s not ignore that ACO/FIA classes have not always been the best option for North America. And let us recall that one of the best couple of decades in North American sports car racing history were provided by an All-American ruleset.

The Camel GT/IMSA GTP era (say 1975–1993) proved that North American fans will turn out in droves for exciting cars and talented drivers racing at high speeds. While IMSA’s Camel GT started out following exiting FIA European classes, the series introduced its incredibly popular AAGT class in 1975, and the ugly, awkward, amazing cars captured the imaginations of car-lovers everywhere.

In 1981 IMSA introduced the GTP category, based on FIA Group C but without fuel economy rules, so the cars could go all-out throughout the race. Fans loved it. The cars looked like proper sports racers: futuristic, bizarre, be-winged, and they had the performance to match. Not every car was beautiful, but watching these beasts in action stirred the soul of anyone who had the slightest interest in auto racing—and the series’ popularity proved that.

#thefuture

IMSA COO Scot Elkins said in an interview in February that the new series (it didn’t have a name at that time) would look at the ACO/FIA regulations in 2016 (which would have been in effect for two years at that time) and determine if they made sense for North America. ALMS CEO and President Scott Atherton emphasized that market forces would decide which way the series went at that point.

Their messages were clear: forget the first two years of USuckr, which will be a huge and ugly compromised mess. In 2016, USuckr will return to its ACO/FIA roots if that makes economic sense, or will make its own rules.

If these fine gentlemen, along with Grand Am CEO Ed Bennett and NASCAR’s Jim France, will recall sports car history, they can find simple guidance for the path forward to success: Awesome cars, excellent drivers, open competition rules. This is the only formula which has ever worked economically for sports car racing in North America.

Add to that the promotional might and experience of NASCAR, and a TV product based on actually presenting the high-quality racing instead of being a vehicle for infomercials, and USuckr really could be the next big thing in sports car racing history.

Rolex 2.0 simply won’t cut it, any more than the Rolex Series has so far. ALMS 2.0 might work, so long as all the things Grand Am did right with Rolex (promotion, TV) carry forward.

And if the USuckr decides against ACO/FIA rules, and sets out on its own, then follow the pattern of what worked in the past: The last Golden Age of sports car racing in North America, where the cars were the stars, the drivers were also, the racing was wide open, and the series was successful by every measure.

I know sports car racing is all about automotive ingenuity, but there is no need to try to reinvent the wheel.

[962]

Originally Posted by IndyMeister

No hard feelings, please! Because that's not exactly what I said.

And thanks for the clarification on the methods of spectator counting in ALMS and GA. And of course: packed grandstands do not equal good racing...

But I think it's legitimate to ask those questions if one's debating on fan bases.

No not exactly but
"And believe me: I won't look surprised at all if Grand-Am attendance figures are at the level of club sport events..."

No hard feelings on my part, maybe a little defensive due to the fact that is seems at least on this individual board that unless the USCR ends up being ALMS v2 then it's by all accounts destined to be nothing more than a bunch of glorified SCCA club events. So far USCR has adopted every single class in ALMS and GA with the exception of P1 and to listen to some of you that is a deal breaker for you to be a fan. Why? because DP's and LMP2's are not worthy of top class designation, only time will tell, but me personally I'm not interested in a top class with 2-3 cars but thats just me. If P1 was capable of 13+ car counts in the U.S. then heck yea I'd love to see that, but thats not reality.

[Fogelhund]

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...gram-for-2014/

Porsche considering factory 911 entry for 2014.

[FCYTravis]

The problem with just saying "Camel GT 2.0," as much as that would be awesome, is that a metric ton of the money spent in that amazing era of American motorsports is no longer there, starting with, well, Camel.

Also, we need to remember why that series ultimately collapsed and failed - because the spending got totally out of hand, factories drove all the privateers out of the series and then quit themselves. Cost-no-object racing is inherently unsustainable.

The lesson that really should be taken from that era is that one thing helped drive the explosive growth of Camel GTP grids in the mid-80s: the Porsche 962. Any privateer team with half a million bucks or so could call up Weissach and have a competitive, upgradeable, reliable and supported prototype package roll off the next 747 cargo jet. As the Porsche 962 became less and less competitive in the latter part of the decade, non-factory entries into the series began to tail off and GTP became a Nissan show, then briefly a Jaguar show, then a Toyota show, then nobody showed.

Whatever #TheFuture is to be, it needs a Porsche 962 for the 21st century.

[Maelochs]

If USCR management talks with manufacturers (both of road- and racing cars) and also with ACO before making the 2016 rules … they can find out whether or not the manufacturers are interested or willing to provide vehicles to suit the proposed new regs.

Yes, the availability of the 962 was a game-changer for GTP, but that doesn’t mean that a single manufacturer has to fill that role; so long as teams can buy competitive cars for a reasonable price, the series can have good grids—same as any other series.

And yes, runaway spending killed GTP. There is this concept, “Learning From Experience,” which is pretty much the subject of my post.

[HJJ]

Interview w/Ralph Gilles of SRT.

http://www.racer.com/qa-with-srt-bos...rticle/287221/

[FstrthnU]

It's naturally very early to make a provisional entry list for next year, but I'm going to try and think of all the teams continuing into next year. This is just based off of current teams in Grand Am and ALMS (other than the Porsche 991 GTLM entry)

P: 1x Deltawing Coupe
1-2x Chip Ganassi Racing Riley-BMW
1-2x Michael Shank Racing Riley-Ford
1x Starworks Motorsport Riley-Ford
1x Wayne Taylor Racing Corvette DP
1-2x Action Express Racing Corvette DP
1x Gainsco Corvette DP (?)
1x Spirit of Daytona Corvette DP
1x 8Star Motorsports Corvette DP
1-2x Team Sahlen Riley-BMW
2x Extreme Speed Motorsports HPD ARX-03b

PC: 2x BAR1 Motorsports
1x PR1/Mathasien Motorsports
1x Dragonspeed Mishumotors
1x Core Autosport?
1x Performance Tech Motorsport

GTLM:
2x Corvette Racing Chevrolet Corvette C7.R
2x BMW Team RLL BMW Z4 GTE
2x SRT Motorsports SRT Viper GTS-R
1x Falken Tire Porsche 911 (997 or 991)
1x Risi Compitizione Ferrari 458 Italia GT
2x Unknown Team (Flying Lizard?) Porsche 991 RSR
1-2x Core Autosport Porsche 911

GTD:
1-3x TRG Porsche 911 GT3 Cup
1-2x Alex Job Racing Porsche 911 GT3 Cup or Audi R8
1-2x Dempsey Racing Porsche 911 GT3 Cup
1x JDX Racing Porsche 911 GT3 Cup
1-2x NGT Motorsport Porsche 911 GT3 Cup
1x Brumos Racing Porsche 911 GT3 Cup
1x Magnus Racing Porsche 911 GT3 Cup
1x APR Audi R8
1-2x AIM Autosport Ferrari 458 Italia
1-2x Scuderia Corsa Ferrari 458 Italia
1-2x Turner Motorsport BMW M3 (?)
1x Park Place Motorsports Porsche 911 GT3 Cup
1x Muehlner Motorsports Porsche 911 GT3 Cup

GX: 1-3x Mazda6

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by FstrthnU

It's naturally very early to make a provisional entry list for next year, but I'm going to try and think of all the teams continuing into next year. This is just based off of current teams in Grand Am and ALMS (other than the Porsche 991 GTLM entry)

P: 1x Deltawing Coupe
1-2x Chip Ganassi Racing Riley-BMW
1-2x Michael Shank Racing Riley-Ford
1x Starworks Motorsport Riley-Ford
1x Wayne Taylor Racing Corvette DP
1-2x Action Express Racing Corvette DP
1x Gainsco Corvette DP (?)
1x Spirit of Daytona Corvette DP
1x 8Star Motorsports Corvette DP
1-2x Team Sahlen Riley-BMW
2x Extreme Speed Motorsports HPD ARX-03b

Such a sad feeling that only one LMP2 team, made up of two cars, fighting against a bunch of DPs (and a Deltawing) next year!

[HJJ]

GTD:
1-3x TRG Porsche 911 GT3 Cup
1-2x Alex Job Racing Porsche 911 GT3 Cup or Audi R8
1-2x Dempsey Racing Porsche 911 GT3 Cup
1x JDX Racing Porsche 911 GT3 Cup
1-2x NGT Motorsport Porsche 911 GT3 Cup
1x Brumos Racing Porsche 911 GT3 Cup
1x Magnus Racing Porsche 911 GT3 Cup
1x APR Audi R8
1-2x AIM Autosport Ferrari 458 Italia
1-2x Scuderia Corsa Ferrari 458 Italia
1-2x Turner Motorsport BMW M3 (?)
1x Park Place Motorsports Porsche 911 GT3 Cup
1x Muehlner Motorsports Porsche 911 GT3 Cup

Brumos has serious $$ problems. They may be gone after Road Atlanta. That's not to say they won't be back.

Turner has a 458 it's testing.

I don't thing Dempsey will race in this class next year.

[Gingers4Justice]

Here's a question; what's the difference in cost between running a P2 and DP, and then a German DTM or Super GT?

[FCYTravis]

Historically speaking, once the series really got rolling, a championship-competitive DP budget for GA was probably not far from what a top P2 budget was for ALMS.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by FCYTravis

Historically speaking, once the series really got rolling, a championship-competitive DP budget for GA was probably not far from what a top P2 budget was for ALMS.

..and some DP teams spend as much as some P1 teams, or more.

DP/P2 are spending between $2-$4 million per car...

DTM is allegedly around $5-8 million per car.