Hans Question

[greenamex2]

Out of interest, I am going to have to slacken off my tethers a tad because I nearly hit a car because of the HANS device restricting my head movement.

Asides from that I am now used to the device and am happy wearing it.

Additional costs to the add to the equation are -

- A new steering wheel and adapter because I had to tilt the seat back a bit to get the required harness angles.

- Either a gearstick or relocate the entire engine and gearbox (yippee) backwards for the same reason.

[midgetman]

Fuel to flames, Denis, fuel to flames.

Backs up Carsten's argument that a HANS is perfect in a car that's designed for it, a problem in other cars.

I come back to risk management. Russian Roulette is, what, 8:1 so I don't take part. BSF - 30k competitors, 3 deaths which may or may not have been related to BSF, we don't know. So 10,000:1 at least.

Sorry for sham-maths if you don't agree, but that's how I view it.

Having said that, HANS is on the menu for next season for me, but it's compulsion that I'm against. We can take adult decisions.

[greenamex2]

Who, me?

[Red Baron]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Having said that, HANS is on the menu for next season for me, but it's compulsion that I'm against. We can take adult decisions.

Happy to read that you are going down the HANS route; the more the merrier in my opinion.

What puzzles me is why so many of you are against the thought of compulsory use of HANS. I can see that it is costly, but then what price do you put on your life??

You already HAVE to have a fire extinguisher fitted to your car, you HAVE to wear a helmet, you HAVE to have a cage fitted, you HAVE to wear suitable overalls (be they proban or nomex)........so you're not really against the use of compulsory safety devices....are you??

True the HANS won't help you in a fire or a side impact; this is where the extinguisher, race suits and cage come in. Use of all such devices builds a safety package that will hopefully get you out of most situations, they are not meant for use in isolation.

Rosie

[greenamex2]

Red Baron, how many cars do you think would have ALL the existing safety measures fitted if they didn't HAVE to have them?

Total that lot up and you are talking the cost of at least a seasons racing for a real club competitor.

For some people a set of cheap tyres is the difference between between racing and not racing, let alone 50 quids worth of carbon fibre that could easily cost them over 1000 pounds to install and may or may not ever save their life.

[e30nerd]

This sequence was taken this weekend at Lydden. The accident was not head-on into the tyre wall, but the front off-side appeared to drag the car into it (ie to piviot around the front)

you can see there was a lot of head movment

[e30nerd]

BTW the driver is 100% ok if not a little shaken!

[greenamex2]

A 'good' example.

Plus point - Yes the HANS device would have reduced the head movement.

Minus point - The driver is OK so would the HANS device been of any benefit?

[carsten.meurer]

Originally Posted by Red Baron

What puzzles me is why so many of you are against the thought of compulsory use of HANS. I can see that it is costly, but then what price do you put on your life??
Rosie

i think you either ignored my post that answered just this, or i did not make my point clear !

a ) i am for all purpose build racecars to be build to work perfectly with hans, and its use being made complusory in those.

b ) i am for as many people to use hans in a properly adjusted car.
adjusted to outrule the negative options i get to later as far as possible !

c ) i am against making hans mandatory in all cars, as some will just not make
it work, but maybe even endanger your health. may it be position of driver
in relation to rollover bar, or fixing points of harness.

points i fear are able to have a negative effect if useing a hans in a not
properly adjusted car:
- in case of car turning upside down head can not give enough room to any
obsticle in single seaters or small salloons/ sportscars. thus a harder impact on your head ! you won't want to ban all older type of chassis from racing because rollbars were smaller at the time ? mostly they were slower and more flexible aswell, so are relatively more unlikely to cause a bsf related crash.

- in case of a bad impact and following roll, or secondary impact, and not properly working seatbelt ( or, as i fear due to missing research - even in the case of seatbelts installed to hans spec ), or seatbelts not working to the same effect as if strapped just over your shoulders. may it be due to more
room to stretch, or maybe coming off the hans leaving you free to move in the car. i decided i rather have the prooven effect of seatbelts than having them compromised.

- you have carbon fibre round your neck, and you have a seat there aswell.
in case of a big rearwrds impact i fear that normal seats do not give enough room for your hans not being jammed in between your seat and your spine.
this can hurt your spine, and cause all sort of health risks.
this could be adressed with special seats that give this room, but no one
worked on it yet. willl they in case this scenario really happens ?
so,e single seaters do not really have room in that area to let the hans get out of the way too.

-what about acceleration of the brain ( if in question for a race driver...) inside the
scull in case the head movement is stopped by hans as it should.
while you might get a big bang on your heat without it, that might have lesser effect than hans...



these 4 points in my view adress a far bigger number of accidents possible than the head on to 30 deg impact with a barrier or other car.
unless some research gives evidence i am completely nuts, i would like the choice to go for the know benefits of a proper seat and belts.

cost is not my point at all !
i do buy a expensive lid if its worth it, aswell as a good suit and a seat with
side head protection cause it only makes sense. it can't harm !


from some level of racing downwards, i think in reality money would better be spend on active safety, not passiv.
with the limited budgets, better tires and a shorter lifespan of components might add more to safety than hans or expensive extinguisher systems.
after all we pay for lots of marshalls who have one with entry fees.
so a small handheld should be ok...

also the average hot hatch will have a far smaller value of decelleration due to lower speed and more deformable structure till the survival cell than an
indy car or f1.

and what about doing some exercise to strengthen your neck mussles ?
thats what i would call sensible precautional measure towards a big
impact ! i had a few, and barely had a sore neck at all !
and that included putting a zetec ffrod into a concrete wall at zero angle
head on with about 50 mph.

so please get my point:
i am not here to ban hans, but please think about how to give it more benefits than risks !

[Teletubby]

points i fear are able to have a negative effect if useing a hans in a not
properly adjusted car:
- in case of car turning upside down head can not give enough room to any
obsticle in single seaters or small salloons/ sportscars. thus a harder impact on your head ! you won't want to ban all older type of chassis from racing because rollbars were smaller at the time ? mostly they were slower and more flexible aswell, so are relatively more unlikely to cause a bsf related crash.

One of the incidents that I have been to took place at a lower speed than most 'older chassis' would be racing at so I'm afraid that I find your logic flawed in this instance.

- in case of a bad impact and following roll, or secondary impact, and not properly working seatbelt ( or, as i fear due to missing research - even in the case of seatbelts installed to hans spec ), or seatbelts not working to the same effect as if strapped just over your shoulders. may it be due to more
room to stretch, or maybe coming off the hans leaving you free to move in the car. i decided i rather have the prooven effect of seatbelts than having them compromised.

I fear either you or I misunderstand this point, properly fitted and adjusted belts will be no more likely to not work correctly whether you do or do not have a HANS.

- you have carbon fibre round your neck, and you have a seat there aswell.
in case of a big rearwrds impact i fear that normal seats do not give enough room for your hans not being jammed in between your seat and your spine.
this can hurt your spine, and cause all sort of health risks.
this could be adressed with special seats that give this room, but no one
worked on it yet. willl they in case this scenario really happens ?
so,e single seaters do not really have room in that area to let the hans get out of the way too.

I'm not sure what injury you think may occur here.

-what about acceleration of the brain ( if in question for a race driver...) inside the
scull in case the head movement is stopped by hans as it should.
while you might get a big bang on your heat without it, that might have lesser effect than hans...

I assume that you mean deceleration How you can infer that hitting your head aginst something solid at 50mph is better than having it restrained by tethers that can stretch (albeit not by a huge amount) defeats me and is just the kind of logic (and broken physics ) that is beginning to frustrate me!

after all we pay for lots of marshalls who have one with entry fees.

You are joking, right? What, you really think you are paying for the Marshals?

also the average hot hatch will have a far smaller value of decelleration due to lower speed and more deformable structure till the survival cell than an
indy car or f1.

I agree that the deceleration forces would be less, sadly you won't be any less dead! I have seen a driver die after colliding with a tyre wall at a relatively low speed, I have also seen drivers walk away from similar accidents at the same place at higher speeds, there must be an element of luck (good or bad) in that. Wouldn't it make sense to try to stack the odds in your favour?

and what about doing some exercise to strengthen your neck mussles ?
thats what i would call sensible precautional measure towards a big impact !

Umm, there is some argument that this may help to reduce so called whiplash injuries but frankly will not do a lot to protect you from BSF. After all I would guess that Dale Earnhardt had reasonably developed neck muscles!

I don't have any issue with informed debate around this, or any other safety device, but some of the scaremongering stuff that has been posted in this thread is out of order. A debate around the efficiency (backed up by real, produceable evidence) is what is needed.

Should the HANS be mandatory? I don't think so, after all you are all grown ups and should be able to make informed decisions but they should be informed and so far the only evidence that anybody can reference supports the view that these type of devices can save your life, in the situation for which they are designed! After all a crash helmet won't save your life if you are drowning but then it wasn't designed to was it?

Sam commented that my views around dealing with these accidents was emotive. Well, yes they are emotive, just ask anybody who has been involved in an incident of this type how much fun they had! Try asking JohnW! I'm sorry that my emotive views for the HANS (which have supporting evidence) are so much less valid than Sams views against the HANS (which have no supporting evidence!)

[Eddy V]

Originally Posted by Teletubby

You are joking, right? What, you really think you are paying for the Marshals?

Sorry Teletubby, but Carsten is right in the way that they (the German drivers) pay for GERMAN marshals.


My only two beefs about Hans: too expensive (I hate selling them) and probably, once they are made mandatory in some years time, a FIA age norm (like Snell).
So chuck the Hans in the bin please even after some accident free years, together with your helmet and suit and gloves and......

[Teletubby]

Ah, OK, I wasn't aware of the Marshal situation in Germany.

Too expensive - I can see where you are coming from there. Although I would guess that the R&D costs must have been quite high and I know from personal experience how expensive product liability insurance is. So although it does seem to be very costly for a piece of carbon fibre, I guess that if you add the true costs of production plus the fact that Hubbard-Downing will want to make some money....

And as for aging them..........well some people have to be protected from themselves! I suppose that there must be a finite life for the materials but how short that is would be anybodys guess!

[johnw]

Originally Posted by Eddy V

Sorry Teletubby, but Carsten is right in the way that they (the German drivers) pay for GERMAN marshals.......

Have they tried doughnuts

Originally Posted by Eddy V

....and probably, once they are made mandatory in some years time, a FIA age norm (like Snell).
So chuck the Hans in the bin please even after some accident free years, together with your helmet and suit and gloves and......

Seats and harness,,,,,,,,,,
This is another area that needs looking at. I've yet to find anything which explains how a perfectly good helmet or harness, useable one year, becomes a potential danger the next.
We drive around the roads with seat belts that are 40 years old

[Notso Swift]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Fuel to flames, Denis, fuel to flames.
I come back to risk management. Russian Roulette is, what, 8:1 so I don't take part.

I know blokes who are so tough they play Russian Roulette with an Automatic

[Eddy V]

Originally Posted by johnw

Have they tried doughnuts

Burp, they overdid it at Lydden.

Originally Posted by johnw

I've yet to find anything which explains how a perfectly good helmet or harness, useable one year, becomes a potential danger the next.
We drive around the roads with seat belts that are 40 years old

That is one point I agree with John, why becomes a belt all of the sudden useless, even without an accident.
Okay, materials are a bit different from roadcars, but still.

Why do I complain really? I could sell more if I kept my trap shut.

[MGDavid]

>>>I have seen a driver die after colliding with a tyre wall at a relatively low speed, I have also seen drivers walk away from similar accidents at the same place at higher speeds, there must be an element of luck (good or bad) in that.
===just shows
(a) how little research info and facts there are available
(b) you don't appear to appreciate that science is researchable and predictable and consistent - luck does not come into it.

[Teletubby]

MGDavid, I would agree with point (a) but take issue with point (b).

I didn't say that the accidents were the same but similar. Science is indeed researchable and predictable and consistent but only given constants. The only constant factor here is the tyre wall. Car size, speed, preparation and trajectorys are all variable. As are driver size, age, fitness, safety wear, belt tightness and fitting, weather conditions (both on the day and leading up to the event), tyres....Sahll I continue?

Don't assume that luck doesn't come into it either, I'm pretty sure it does

[Red Baron]

Originally Posted by Denis Bassom

A 'good' example.

Plus point - Yes the HANS device would have reduced the head movement.

Minus point - The driver is OK so would the HANS device been of any benefit?

Happily the driver in this case was fine, but the head movement shown here is exactly the sort of movement that can cause a bsf. Maybe if he were to have the same incident again he wouldn't be so 'lucky'.

I'd put money on the fact that he had a sore neck though, HANS would surely have helped with that.....I am sure it wouldn't have done him any harm.

That said, I appreciate the cost of HANS is a lot to fork out just to prevent a sore neck. We're back to the Russian roulette thing.....

I agree with all of Teletubby's points, even the one about the fact that it shouldn't be made mandatory. You'll have gathered that I am pro-HANS, to me it is a no brainer, but then everyone should be able to make that decision for themsleves.

Just out of interest (cos I can't be bothered to trawl back through all of this thread), why are we debating the fact about it being mandatory? This years blue book says that HANS may be used if it is fitted following the correct guidelines (not the exact words).

Because it is compulsory in F1, FBMW etc (quite rightly, I think), why does anyone think that it is going to become compulsory in club racing??

Rosie

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by Red Baron

Because it is compulsory in F1, FBMW etc (quite rightly, I think), why does anyone think that it is going to become compulsory in club racing??

From 1st jan 2009 it will be compulsory for all FIA registered international events (see "safety" section of http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press...91205-01.html). Guess most assume its likely to "filter down" soon after.

Originally Posted by Teletubby

Don't assume that luck doesn't come into it either, I'm pretty sure it does

I think "luck" is simply when the number of variables is so high that the combination that leads to getting away without a scratch, or indeed dying, are huge to the point of being impossible to calculate. That's definitely not the same thing as saying the variables are uncontrollable. Wearing a HANS device may only be effective in a narrow range of circumstances and dependant on a huge number of factors, but the fact remains that in those particular circumstances the device could be hugely effective and be the difference between "without a scratch" and "dead".

[EvilPumpkin]

I haven't done a lot of looking at HANS since we don't tend to see very many of them (although they do occasionally come to visit).

I'm curious - since they reduce the amount of movement to the head, it would be logical to assume that they reduce the amount of violent movement to the neck.

I know quite a lot of drivers who have suffered soft tissue style injuries to their necks resulting in whiplash type injuries. These injuries have not only prevented them from racing but have also caused them time off from work and loss of earnings from employers less than sympathetic to an employee who is not working because they smacked themselves into a tyre wall.

In addition, repeated injuries of this type over time can have a cumulative effect that can lead to crippling conditions later on down the line.

So, the question is, does HANS reduce the risk of this type of injury? Or reduce the severity of it? It's quite clear that the relative instance of BSF is low. But instances of whiplash type injuries are high and it's far from uncommon to encounter someone who's had more than one in a short period of time.

If HANS was proven to reduce this type of injury and thereby

1. Prevent you from missing subsequent races
2. Prevent you from missing work or having a negative impact on your "off circuit" life
3. Prevent you from suffering from problems later in life caused by "minor" injuries sustained in multiple incidents over you racing career

would it then have added value?

[carsten.meurer]

if i get whiplash right, than i's say in most of the cars we race, the good old
neck brase that for some rason never made it to become regulary used
would do a job as good as hans.

aswell as doing a very similar job ( at lower forces ) it has the benefits to not
effect seat belt efficiency.


seems that after every circle of heated discussion we get to the same point:

there is research available for a very small area of shunts, that mostly
does not effect most racers, due to type of track and car involved.

a very wide area of crashes is left untouched in research, and the governing
bodys just take it for granted that a device being useful in one case is useful
in all.

i have listed the points i have doubt in its positive effects, and i would love
to be proven wrong by valid research based on a 80s fford, some historic TC
or whatever.

i have seen accidents that would not have caused a problem on tv ending
with some broken bones as hans had to be used when it wasn't done
properly, and MY logic tells me there are problems in other areas aswell.

to adress the decelleration of the brain in the scull with hans:
depending on speed ( and i do not go 350plus kph in a nascar ) i rather
hit the steering wheel with my helmet protected head, as the helmet is designed to absorb energy from the outside in a way the decelleration
of the brain is not a health issue. maybe even a closer steering wheel that does not alllow the distace needed for a bsf to be possible would be easier
accepted for myself...

why did they make wider belts mandatory ?

- to reduce stretching of belt
- to put force to the body on a wider area

now for many hans devices to stay in place at all, they made the belts smaller than original.
still in a impact strong enough to prevent me from possible bsf, the force put
by small belts onto hard carbon right where i have my collarbone, has to result in the weakest part giving way. surely will be the bone...


we always depend on luck getting in a car, not to talk of a racecar.
depending on luck implies that you might have bad luck sometimes,
maybe once for a final time !
i have accepted that one day i could not retur from track, and have asked every one around me to accept that it might happen.

i see very few chaces that i will have a crash that hans helpes me in,
and due to missing research have many doubts still.

as soon as i need to waer one, i will ask the fia to take me and my cars out
from the hans rule ( they seem to have a paragraph for that already ), as
my cars are not suited to hans, as is my body... ( not average racers size..)

i will have this apply written by a lawyer, telling them in case they not
reply positivly to my apply, i will hold them liable in case i hold damage
caused by the device in any form i have mentioned in my long list of doubts.

i am already looking forward to theire reply...

[johnw]

Originally Posted by carsten.meurer

i am already looking forward to theire reply...

Probably two short anglo saxon words and advice to take up fishing

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by carsten.meurer

if i get whiplash right, than i's say in most of the cars we race, the good old
neck brase that for some rason never made it to become regulary used
would do a job as good as hans.

aswell as doing a very similar job ( at lower forces ) it has the benefits to not
effect seat belt efficiency.

Which in no way answers any of my queries.

Thanks though.

Just to re-iterate - and the question is really geared to those in the thread that have done a lot of work with rapid deceleration stuff - does HANS lessen the severity of neck injuries?

My question to the drivers - if HANS reduced the severity of the more "minor" (for want of a better word) neck injuries, is it then more likely to be something you would consider a value add?

[MGDavid]

t-tubby I was pondering how to phrase a reply and then noticed dtype38 had done it far more eloquently than I can :-)
>>>I think "luck" is simply when the number of variables is so high that the combination that leads to getting away without a scratch, or indeed dying, are huge to the point of being impossible to calculate.
Ths was true 50 years ago but with today's technology it should be pretty straightforward to measure and assess if somebody put their mind to it. All the variables you mention are measurable and therefore it's still science. This is an example of why I don't believe in 'luck' in much the same way that I don't believe in 'god'. In peril of being accused of taking the argument full circle, my take is that life is largely about understanding and treating risk. I don't perceive the risk to me of BSF as significant therefore would not voluntarily spend a significant sum on a device to mitigate that risk.

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

t-tubby I was pondering how to phrase a reply and then noticed dtype38 had done it far more eloquently than I can :-)
>>>I think "luck" is simply when the number of variables is so high that the combination that leads to getting away without a scratch, or indeed dying, are huge to the point of being impossible to calculate.
Ths was true 50 years ago but with today's technology it should be pretty straightforward to measure and assess if somebody put their mind to it. All the variables you mention are measurable and therefore it's still science. This is an example of why I don't believe in 'luck' in much the same way that I don't believe in 'god'. In peril of being accused of taking the argument full circle, my take is that life is largely about understanding and treating risk. I don't perceive the risk to me of BSF as significant therefore would not voluntarily spend a significant sum on a device to mitigate that risk.

I go along with that. Unless made compulsory I wouldn't have one primarily due to cost. When I ran my Formula Ford I rarely had any sort of budget, so running without a HANS would be almost a necessity. If I ever make a return, I guess it would be the same even though I do still suffer problems with my neck and shoulder after a visit to an Oulton Park tyre wall in the late 80's.

If I was a full time driver racing on a regular basis - then that might be a different story!