2011 British F3 off Season/Silly season news etc (merge)

[Alex K]

What is current Christo's status at Hitech? Is he signed or not yet?!

[strider]

From what I could gather yesterday, not yet, but they are testing at Silverstone again today.

[formula_fan]

Originally Posted by jondownunder

I'm guessing Carlin's seats are the most expensive so not everybody could afford to go there... it would be the obvious first choice for any driver.

But why spend the money going to a team that are clearly not going to win. For some drivers like Pye and Tincknell they need to learn how it all works and will likely do a second year next year, but for drivers like Buller, Idafar and Lloyd it seems they may have wasted more money by not going with Carlin than if they had spent the bit extra as they are never going to win it.

[Alex K]

Because they can't afford going there.
May have a feeling that we'll see a number of surprises of the likes of Fantin, Christo, Pye... maybe even lloyd - been there long enough.

[bella]

Originally Posted by formula_fan

But why spend the money going to a team that are clearly not going to win.

that's an interesting statement from someone who is so vocal about their support for f2 and its importance as a series where drivers can't find the money to do anything better. totally fair point and can be applied with any series - in fact why race in a *series* where you don't stand a chance, let alone with a team that doesn't allegedly have the strongest car. which is the theory that those going to something like auto gp are applying i suppose.

in the end you have to look at the money you have in your hand and try and work out which team fits your working style, communication style and ambitions. teams like double r have the endless invaluable knowledge of boyo which is surely as valuable in the long term as a car that might be able to get you a podium if you can beat your 4 other teammates who are in exactly the same boat as you. that's the beauty of f3 over something without quite so much freedom - increase the variables and the competition increases.

but that's not always how drivers, managers and fathers think, is it.

[formula_fan]

True but at the end of the day results matter in this sport. Beating your teammates is one thing, but it doesn't really make it easier to attract sponsors, teams attentions etc... and we all know how important that is in motorsport at the moment.

I just find it a bit disappointing that almost every time I read an F3 results sheet I see the same team locking out the top positions. This is the only *series* where any team has this kind of dominance. I think F2 is good simply because it allows drivers with varying budgets an equal chance at the title, you can't buy an advantage. GP2 and FR3.5 are similar in the fact that it is hard to pinpoint a completely dominant team so the results can vary a bit more and are more dependent on the driver.

[bella]

Originally Posted by formula_fan

I just find it a bit disappointing that almost every time I read an F3 results sheet I see the same team locking out the top positions.

this i agree with, it is a shame, but it's a bit of an evolutionary process. in the same way that one year the mercedes engine is the one to have, and then a couple of years later everyone's clamouring to get their hands on a vw car. if you take f1 to be the "real world" for the drivers in f3 then f3 is the closest replica to the "real world" you can find in the junior single seater stuff.

Originally Posted by formula_fan

This is the only *series* where any team has this kind of dominance.

whereas this i would disagree with, it's just more visible because there's no limit on the number of cars a team can compete with in f3. in a way, carlin are essentially providing a f2 like atmosphere...

Originally Posted by formula_fan

GP2 and FR3.5 are similar in the fact that it is hard to pinpoint a completely dominant team so the results can vary a bit more and are more dependent on the driver.

yeah, they can be expensive lotteries in that respect. i'm not sure it's so dependent on the driver though - my opinion is that it's down to finding the engineer a driver can work with quickly and efficiently and who understands the car the best. where fr3.5 and gp2 differ is that fr3.5 has retained the same car for a good number of seasons now, whereas gp2 keep changing things about it making it a bit more up in the air. evidently where they're going a bit wrong in the context of the real world (actual, not f1) is that the prices are going up when they should be staying relatively static barring inflation and rising transport costs.

look at the fr3.5 testing - a 1m42 lap and you've got 15-18 cars covered by a second. a driver/engineer relationship can make it or break it just as much as a mistake or screwing up a set of tyres in that sort of a field! you just have to tick as many boxes as you can, and some boxes are bigger than others. same goes for f3, except there's more boxes to tick i guess!

[Richard B]

Originally Posted by jondownunder

I'm guessing Carlin's seats are the most expensive so not everybody could afford to go there... it would be the obvious first choice for any driver.

A driver can still shine and win in a non Carlin car, Bruno Senna with RR and Sergio Perez T-Sport both of whom have made it to F1, Incidently referring to an earlier post regarding B class, Perez cut his teeth winning the B class, didn't seem to do him much harm......

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by bella

this i agree with, it is a shame, but it's a bit of an evolutionary process. in the same way that one year the mercedes engine is the one to have, and then a couple of years later everyone's clamouring to get their hands on a vw car!

Spot on.

Just like we also need to remember that once upon a time Dick Bennetts had a monopoly on the front of the field and then and then PSR and then Manor etc etc

It won't always be Carlin hogging the wins!

[strider]

Originally Posted by formula_fan

I think F2 is good simply because it allows drivers with varying budgets an equal chance at the title, you can't buy an advantage.

If you're serious, you can't understand how F2 really works.

Everyone should start with an equal chance of the title, but if you have some extra money you're allowed to bring in your own personal engineer, which gives you an immediate advantage. Someone with GP2 or A1GP experience must be worth having, even if pricey.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by Richard B

A driver can still shine and win in a non Carlin car, Bruno Senna with RR and Sergio Perez T-Sport both of whom have made it to F1, Incidently referring to an earlier post regarding B class, Perez cut his teeth winning the B class, didn't seem to do him much harm......

I agree Perez is very talented and his first season was particularly impressive. Senna's somewhat less so. However I doubt whether the team either were in would have made any difference to their progress towards F1.

They both have always had the backing to go the whole way, simple as that, so team choice wouldn't have been such a factor.

[runshaw]

Originally Posted by strider

Everyone should start with an equal chance of the title, but if you have some extra money you're allowed to bring in your own personal engineer, which gives you an immediate advantage. Someone with GP2 or A1GP experience must be worth having, even if pricey.

Soucek had his GP2 engineer with him in F2 didn't he? But I thought that was on an informal basis, because the drivers can bring guests with them. He wasn't an F2 employee so i'm not sure how much information he could have given which would have been a huge advantage unless he looked at the telemtry with Andy.

Otherwise I think drivers in any series have always seeked extra help from people 'in the know' if they pay them. It's entirely possible to buy an advantage in any championship, not just F2. I've certainly heard of that before. Well in fact that just cements the discussion. You buy an advantage if you race with Carlin in F3!

[kipper]

Originally Posted by runshaw

It's entirely possible to buy an advantage in any championship, not just F2. I've certainly heard of that before. Well in fact that just cements the discussion. You buy an advantage if you race with Carlin in F3!

However, the difference is that F3 makes no claims of giving each driver an equal chance of winning the title. Whilst I'd question how much benefit can be gleaned from bringing along a personal engineer, even if on an informal basis, it must provide something of an advantage over one's competitors.

[runshaw]

Yes I know, reading my post back it looks like i'm disagreeing with strider but i'm actually not, I was reiterating the fact that an advantage of some sort can be bought even if your in F2, like any other championships. My point was that in F2 I think the advantage is obviously more minimal compared to F3 because the driver isn't in a specific team with the same engineer and mechanics who can actually develop the car. But then again its an advantage, and its supposed to be equal!

[formula_fan]

Originally Posted by strider

If you're serious, you can't understand how F2 really works.

Everyone should start with an equal chance of the title, but if you have some extra money you're allowed to bring in your own personal engineer, which gives you an immediate advantage. Someone with GP2 or A1GP experience must be worth having, even if pricey.

To my knowledge that is not something that actually happens much in F2 anyway and I know that Dean Stoneman won the championship without a 'personal engineer'.

You say 'pricey', but realistically having someone around for the whole season can't cost more than 20k max, surely? Not exactly expensive in motor racing terms.

[ivanalesi]

I think BF3 are making a big mistake allowing such big teams. Carlin must make some fundamental errors to get beaten, they have a huge advantage from their size, data, sharing costs and getting the best drivers. There should be a limit on 2 or 3 cars... huge teams are always making racing predictable.

[runshaw]

Originally Posted by ivanalesi

I think BF3 are making a big mistake allowing such big teams. Carlin must make some fundamental errors to get beaten, they have a huge advantage from their size, data, sharing costs and getting the best drivers. There should be a limit on 2 or 3 cars... huge teams are always making racing predictable.

But you can say exactly the same for the F3 Euroseries. From 2004-2009, the same team won it. ASM with Green, Hamilton and di Resta, and ART with Grosjean, Hulk and Bianchi. And that is the same team. And in GP2, ART has been the team to be with, with 3 titles of the 6 so far going to their drivers. Its no different.

[formula_fan]

I agree with Ivanalesi. I think the fact that Carlin has so many cars does harm the championship a bit. With so many cars they have double the chance of winning it anyway, at least a couple of their cars will always be trouble free and win / be at the front.

If there were only 2 or 3 cars per team then it would mix the results up a lot more and give a team like Fortec or Double R a stronger chance to compete over a season.

[bella]

do you think that if carlin ran 3 cars instead of 5 the other 2 drivers would stay within the series or look elsewhere for a "competitive" drive of the same potential (in their eyes) though?

i'm 50:50 on limiting teams. there's fair arguments on both sides isn't there!

[ivanalesi]

Originally Posted by runshaw

But you can say exactly the same for the F3 Euroseries. From 2004-2009, the same team won it. ASM with Green, Hamilton and di Resta, and ART with Grosjean, Hulk and Bianchi. And that is the same team. And in GP2, ART has been the team to be with, with 3 titles of the 6 so far going to their drivers. Its no different.

Yeah, but now if Mucke, Prema or Signature had 30% chance of beating ART, now Fortec has smth like 15% chance of beating Carlin... It's not one measure that will make the competition better, but many. Somebody dominating for years is never good for any sort of competition, the strong becomes stronger, the weak become weaker... so smth must be done. The writing has been on the wall for some years now, it's quite strange when the championship is won so many times in a row by rookies from one team with the same backer. The quality of the field has been getting weaker and weaker...

[strider]

In terms of opportunity for others, it was better when Carlin ran 3 cars in BF3 and 3 cars in in F3ES, but that obviously wasn't as cost effective as what they are doing now.

But if you restricted what they are doing now they could take their 6 cars over to Europe and that would leave BF3 looking a bit sad.

Above all don't forget that when Trevor started out in something like 1997 it was with one car for Henry Stanton and PSR were ruling the roost. Running Narain Karthikeyan was what put the team on the map and it's escalated from there.

[Vintage Aston]

Originally Posted by ivanalesi

Yeah, but now if Mucke, Prema or Signature had 30% chance of beating ART, now Fortec has smth like 15% chance of beating Carlin... It's not one measure that will make the competition better, but many. Somebody dominating for years is never good for any sort of competition, the strong becomes stronger, the weak become weaker... so smth must be done. The writing has been on the wall for some years now, it's quite strange when the championship is won so many times in a row by rookies from one team with the same backer. The quality of the field has been getting weaker and weaker...

it would be great to get signature in british series. i think they would do so well. but i think carlin has had some truly good drivers in the past two or three years and we see it in f1 - if you have the good car and talent, you win. eg brawn, now red bull/vetel combo. if you have the ability to do well in motorsport and the talent to fill the seast then i dont see why they should be stopped.

[strider]

In my opinion, Double R are a bigger challenge to Carlin that Fortec, certainly this year. They've won in pretty much everything else, but for some reason Fortec have never won a British F3 title and in testing so far they seem to be lagging.

[Alex K]

Slight off topic. Wayne Boyd will compete in Cooper Tires presents USF2000 National Championship powered by Mazda in a #4 DHL car run by Belardi Auto Racing. That's for those who were wondering were he was. Missing him BF3, and am also surprised he's still with DHL, although am not sure if it's same branchthat backs him?!

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by strider

In my opinion, Double R are a bigger challenge to Carlin that Fortec, certainly this year. They've won in pretty much everything else, but for some reason Fortec have never won a British F3 title and in testing so far they seem to be lagging.

Fortec have quite often had drivers at least comparable with the drivers in the leading team of the day, whatever the season, so agreed it's strange they haven't figured stronger more often.