BTCC 2024 News & Rumours

[Jon411]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Maybe Dick’s “big plans” is a court case to get some of the performance degrading measures lifted on the BMWs?

I really hope that they don’t go with the FWD 2-series.

Same here but unfortunately RWD has been made out to the devil the past 5/6 years. WSR have done well this year with a consistent car but RWD will only continue to be artificially held back - something went on for it to be so slow out of the hairpins at Croft and Knockhill compared to previous years.

I am presuming they are going FWD unfortunately.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Jon411

Same here but unfortunately RWD has been made out to the devil the past 5/6 years. WSR have done well this year with a consistent car but RWD will only continue to be artificially held back - something went on for it to be so slow out of the hairpins at Croft and Knockhill compared to previous years.

I am presuming they are going FWD unfortunately.

I know i do this every time but where is the proof of Rigging? As far as I can see there never has been any just Teams moaning and spreading innuendo when actually they are either doing a poor job or someone else is doing a good job

[porsche962fan]

if WSR leaves then nobody is left from the supertouring era and even first half of 00s

[Ant25]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

if WSR leaves then nobody is left from the supertouring era and even first half of 00s

They’ve got big plans for next season….

[BtccLee]

Wasn't it posted a couple of months ago/mid-season that the 2-series project had been shelved?

We all assumed it meant continuing with the 3-series, but maybe they are looking to run a different model from the BMW stable entirely?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

if WSR leaves then nobody is left from the supertouring era and even first half of 00s

That's probably a testament to how effective the evolution of the current ruleset has been.

Has there been any other period that has seen teams run for in excess of 20 years in the series?

DCRS is the closest I can think of....

[Andrew Abbott]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

That's probably a testament to how effective the evolution of the current ruleset has been.

Has there been any other period that has seen teams run for in excess of 20 years in the series?

DCRS is the closest I can think of....

I can't think of one. I think Broadspeed were active from around 1963 through to 1977 which was a long stint in the early days.

Gordon Spice was 'regularly active' between 1967 and 1983, but not continuously.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Jon411

Same here but unfortunately RWD has been made out to the devil the past 5/6 years. WSR have done well this year with a consistent car but RWD will only continue to be artificially held back - something went on for it to be so slow out of the hairpins at Croft and Knockhill compared to previous years.

I am presuming they are going FWD unfortunately.

I noticed this too, but I’ve no idea why it’s no longer a thing for the BMWs? A few years back the leap out of hairpins was quite pronounced and they would often gain a car length over the other FWD cars. Supposedly this performance trait hasn’t been “balanced” by TOCA, so I don’t know…

I understood that the start procedure was balanced in that they were forced to use a longer first gear and then had their boost levels reduced at lower speeds but I understood this to be just at the start and not during actual racing.

If TOCA can force Vauxhall to install a bolt under the accelerator pedal (preventing 100% throttle) of their Astra then anything is possible.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

That's probably a testament to how effective the evolution of the current ruleset has been.

Has there been any other period that has seen teams run for in excess of 20 years in the series?

I don't think that says anything about the current ruleset, that's just how things are. Aside from a few F1 teams and maybe NASCAR, you'd be hard pressed to find any category where the same team has been competing continuously for 20-30 years

There are teams from the 90s and early 2000s that still exist (RML and Prodrive for example), they just don't run BTCC teams.

[Pdh]

I’m not sure why anyone has problem with the RWD handicaps. It’s only the last two years that FWD has won the championship, previous to that RWD won the last 5 championships in a row. BMW won 7 manufacturers titles on the bounce until this year

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by redshoes

I don't think that says anything about the current ruleset, that's just how things are. Aside from a few F1 teams and maybe NASCAR, you'd be hard pressed to find any category where the same team has been competing continuously for 20-30 years

I think that confirms my point - BTCC has seen teams run continuously for in excess of 20 years, and I think that is entirely down to the ruleset.

The regulations were designed to drive down costs and provide a platform that allowed independent teams to be competitive, recognising that manufacturer support is virtually non-existent nowadays.

Other series' have seen teams come and go (in part) because of the regulations in force at the time. One only has to look at the conversations surrounding other non-TCR touring car series' to see that many teams do not recognise the direction those championships are heading. NGTC has provided that for BTCC (as well as the TV deal and circuit stability) and has resulted in many teams staying with the series for much longer than they may have done elsewhere.
NGTC has provided a ruleset that allows independent teams to be competitive, have (relatively) cost-effective racing with good exposure.

It's not the only factor, but previous regulations have (IMO) eventually driven teams away from the series.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I think that confirms my point - BTCC has seen teams run continuously for in excess of 20 years, and I think that is entirely down to the ruleset.

No, I don't think it does, although I'm not entirely sure what your point was. I don't see how a ruleset (NGTC) that's only been in place 12 years can be responsible for teams being there in excess of 20 years.

porsche962fan's post, to which you were responding : "if WSR leaves then nobody is left from the supertouring era and even first half of 00s"
In other word's, WSR are currently the only remaining team from 20 years ago. There are far more teams a that have been and gone in that period, which is contrary to what you are claiming about the current ruleset.

[Mike Harte]

I would imagine that Team Dynamics would be amongst the teams that stayed in BTCC the longest, at 31 years.

[MrsDoubtfire]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I don't think they'd get very far, considering the BMW has been the best car all season in 2023.

Go on then, I’ll bite. I vaguely recall you having some formula to work this out, something involving the second or third placed cars, but it’s buried in some thread somewhere. Please explain…

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I would imagine that Team Dynamics would be amongst the teams that stayed in BTCC the longest, at 31 years.

But not continuously.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by MrsDoubtfire

Go on then, I’ll bite. I vaguely recall you having some formula to work this out, something involving the second or third placed cars, but it’s buried in some thread somewhere. Please explain…

It was in the 2023 season thread.

The intent (and i accept it is just one way of assessing each car's strengths and is not conclusive) was to remove the effect of having an exceptional driver from the consideration of how strong a car is - in response to continued claims that the Ford should be 'pegged back'.

When you look at the results of cars 2 & 3 for each type - the BMW is the best performing - https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...postcount=2681

If you look at the first two cars - the Ford is marginally the best - https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...postcount=2687

If you look at all cars - the BMW is clearly the best - https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...postcount=2688


I think it shows that the impact of a driver (in this case Sutton and Ingram) has a bigger effect on the results than any restrictions imposed by TOCA that might be challenged in court.

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

It was in the 2023 season thread.

The intent (and i accept it is just one way of assessing each car's strengths and is not conclusive) was to remove the effect of having an exceptional driver from the consideration of how strong a car is - in response to continued claims that the Ford should be 'pegged back'.

When you look at the results of cars 2 & 3 for each type - the BMW is the best performing - https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...postcount=2681

If you look at the first two cars - the Ford is marginally the best - https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...postcount=2687

If you look at all cars - the BMW is clearly the best - https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...postcount=2688


I think it shows that the impact of a driver (in this case Sutton and Ingram) has a bigger effect on the results than any restrictions imposed by TOCA that might be challenged in court.

But surely looking at any sets of cars still massively is influenced by the drivers as much as just choosing the best driver. Ash Sutton may be better than Jake Hill but the margin in positions is generally 1-2 places. But Stephen Jelley is considerably better than Sam Osborne and might finish ten places ahead of him. And the Hyundai lineup is considerably weaker than the Ford and BMW lineups. I think the fact that NAPA took nine pole positions, of which three came from Dan Cammish or Dan Rowbottom, would suggest that the Ford was the best car if not by the extent of Sutton's domination.

According to the supertimes, it was

1. Ford 100.011
2. BMW 100.289
3. Hyundai 100.410

For drivers and ignoring anomalous results (normally practice sessions would be used to get rid of these but it takes too long to find those for BTCC), it is:
1 Ash Sutton 100.074
2 Jake Hill 100.337
3 Dan Cammish 100.371
4 Tom Ingram 100.410
5 Colin Turkington 100.457
8 Adam Morgan 100.832
9 Dan Rowbottom 100.833
14 Tom Chilton 101.133
15 Ronan Pearson 101.171
17 Stephen Jelley 101.262
20 Sam Osborne 101.527
31 Nick Halstead 103.775

I would suggest that the Ford drivers are all slightly higher than you would expect them to be compared to the BMW drivers, but would agree that the BMW is faster than the Hyundai. I could go back and calculate 2022 for a bit of a comparison but before that there was success ballast so it is not comparable.

[Mike Harte]

crm, I think that it is also worth taking into account the number of times that the drivers within Team Napa have helped Sutton in various ways throughout the season, from slowing other cars to letting him through to gain position. I don't thing that the same could be said of the Bristol Street gang with Ingram.

I also think that the relative results would be considerably different if both Sutton and Ingram were not in the series. To me, they have been the standout drivers of the past couple/few seasons, and therefore they skew the type of comparisons that you have presented, but that's not your fault; that's just what happens when you play around with numbers.

I was surprised when ITV put up the difference in results between the two drivers at the beginning of the day on Sunday. It showed that, and I'm going from a fuzzy memory here, Sutton had 10 wins to 2 for Ingram, they were equal on 2nd places but Ingram was way ahead on 3rds; yet they were still only about 45 points adrift which then became 46 points at the end of the day.

That shows that, in reality, Ingram was far more consistent than Sutton throughout the season, which demonstrates that although Sutton is a brilliant driver, at times he does tend to make rash decisions, like he did at Oulton and another circuit which I can't remember.

[Mike Harte]

BTCC frog, could you please explain to an old duffer how the supertimes are compiled; I'm not disputing them, I just don't understand them.

I would also like to add that you need to be aware that the word "fastest" is subjective. Yes, the Fords may well be able to complete a whole lap in a fractionally shorter time, but they are far from being the fastest car in a straight line; I think the Hyundais can claim that followed by possibly the Toyotas or maybe the BMWs. The difference between them all is that Fords have far better prepared to give them the advantage of the others, whether that be in braking or being able to turn in better or just overall better handling giving the drivers more confidence.

Can I add that I sorry for keeping this discussion going about the '23 season when this should really be in one of the 2023 threads.

[crmalcolm]

There will never be a perfect science to demonstrate which is the best car. All methods of comparison are just an indication, and will have multiple factors affecting the outcome.
What I think is clear though are two things:
Certain drivers are capable of getting results that gives their car a false impression of how well it performs.
The BMW and Ford are both cars that are proven front-runners (in the hands of multiple drivers).

Which provides the counter to two points made through the season
1 - That the Ford is way ahead of other cars and should be pegged back.
2 - That the BMW has been pegged back too much and should be given a performance break.

Neither point, I feel, is conclusive given the evidence of results.

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

BTCC frog, could you please explain to an old duffer how the supertimes are compiled; I'm not disputing them, I just don't understand them.

You take the fastest time of each car and driver for the weekend (although I was just doing qualifying as 95% of the time, that is when the fastest lap is, and it is a lot of extra effort for me to add practice times in when they make such little difference, apart from in wet conditions, but that is why there are anomalous results when there aren't supposed to be). You then take the fastest lap overall of the weekend, adjust that to be 100 and make every other lap time a percentage of that perfect 100. Then average the results for every race in the season to get the overall score. So if Ford had taken all ten poles, they would have had a score of a perfect 100. But the system doesn't take into account that some drivers get more out of a car than others.

[InYourMirrors45]

So a couple of things to go off after brands hatch this last weekend for next year:

Rob Huff was in attendance once again, was interviewed over the circuit tannoy, said there was a lot of interest and possibilities for a 2024 drive.

Andrew Watson impressed a lot of people this season, I believe he’s already had an offer to remain with PMR, as well as several offers from other teams including WSR

That possibly could’ve been Turkingtons last race as a BTCC driver - Depending on what his sons do next year and how much of step up the motorsport ladder they make.

Dynamics apparently will be back but not in a way most people think.

[SV8Predator]

Originally Posted by InYourMirrors45

Andrew Watson impressed a lot of people this season, I believe he’s already had an offer to remain with PMR, as well as several offers from other teams including WSR

He hasn't had an offer from WSR as (1) that's not how it works, and (2), there's not a fifth car.


Which sort of nullifies your following paragraph as well.

[Sodemo]

That would be a shame if it was Colin's last race, would be nice to have a proper send-off, but then, did Matt Neal or Plato get a send off? I dont recall one...

[SSmith]

Originally Posted by InYourMirrors45

So a couple of things to go off after brands hatch this last weekend for next year:

Rob Huff was in attendance once again, was interviewed over the circuit tannoy, said there was a lot of interest and possibilities for a 2024 drive.

Andrew Watson impressed a lot of people this season, I believe he’s already had an offer to remain with PMR, as well as several offers from other teams including WSR

That possibly could’ve been Turkingtons last race as a BTCC driver - Depending on what his sons do next year and how much of step up the motorsport ladder they make.

Dynamics apparently will be back but not in a way most people think.

I'd like to see Rob Huff on the grid full-time, interesting to see what kind of commercial backing he can bring to get himself a drive (and presumably earn himself some money in the process, the most likely stumbling block in any deal).

Andrew Watson does have the talent to progress in the BTCC, no doubt about that. Where he races is dependent on what backers he brings to the table for the 2024 season. He is of course managed by Mark Blundell which is presumably why the rumours of a move to WSR keep appearing.

For a WSR move to become reality it would require one of the existing drivers to leave (and if I remember correctly most of them are under contract or have an option for 2024 in the case of Jelley) OR a fantastic commercial deal gets brought to the table. For all the talk of "big plans", maybe Mark Blundell will be putting his name on 2 of WSRs cars?
As for a 5th TBL, who knows? In the case that they do acquire a 5th TBL, WSR would either have to use G20-023-05 (the ex-Ciceley car that acts as the spare car) or build up a new car at great cost.
As a reminder, six 330e cars were built. 01 - retired, in Turkington collection; 02 - Jelley; 03 - Hill; 04 - Morgan (former Ciceley car); 05 - former Ciceley car, current spare; 06 - Turkington.

If it turns out that it was Turkington's final weekend then it would be a shame, but the championship always moves forwards, and we'll always get new talent coming through.

I'm intrigued by your statement regarding Team Dynamics. I've suspected for months that it'll be nothing more than a branding job on somebody else's cars (e.g., Team HARD) but it will be interesting to see what materialises in the next 6 months.