[Rumours] 2022 Silly Season

[Greem]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Apparently some objected to my use of the word Sauber, even though it is the actual name of the business.

Indeed. Sauber Motorsport AG.

We're into empty room territory here, aren't we?

[Adam43]

Which is why I call the team Jordan.

I think Hawkwood “ownership interest” probably refers to Stroll having part ownership of both companies.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Apparently some objected to my use of the word Sauber, even though it is the actual name of the business.

Not at all. I asked why you made a point of saying Sauber because I was interested in why you did it, not because I "objected". Let's not imagine an argument when there was only curiosity.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Greem

Does it *really* matter that much to people what the ownership structure of F1 teams is/was/might be in future?

It doesn't matter at all, but that doesn't mean it isn't interesting.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

Not at all. I asked why you made a point of saying Sauber because I was interested in why you did it, not because I "objected". Let's not imagine an argument when there was only curiosity.

A reasonable question - what underlying point seemed so important to the user that they did this.

The team has asked to be called Alfa Romeo. We know why. If anything it is a good thing as it demonstrates that Sauber are in a decent position of having attracted a key sponsor/partner. At least better than at other times!

Obviously it’s not like the ‘50s when the actual car company ran the team. But it’s not like it is a modern curse. It’s not a lie as even people in their armchairs know the teams origins!

And there has been some interesting discussion mixed in with the desperation to be right!

Seems slightly disrespectful to do otherwise. When people change their names, by choice, marriage, or maybe preferring a shorter or longer version of their forename I wouldn’t refer to them my their previous name.

[bathurst77]

T all those people who scofffed at my post Danny- Norris Russell podium dream.....
2 outa 3 aint bad
Go my man Dan..... The shoey! x 3

And thumbs up to Oscar Piastri for making an Aussie daily double in f2

What do we have to do to get his bum in a f1 car?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

T all those people who scofffed at my post Danny- Norris Russell podium dream.....
2 outa 3 aint bad
Go my man Dan..... The shoey! x 3

And thumbs up to Oscar Piastri for making an Aussie daily double in f2

What do we have to do to get his bum in a f1 car?

Patience...
In 2023 he will be an Alpine driver. Otherwise someone else will snap him up

[S griffin]

That's the problem with only 10 teams in F1, less opportunities for talented young drivers to break into F1

[bathurst77]

Thats why i like 3 car teams

but make 3rd car "ever changing", must have x number of different drivers in a season, can run different livery and sponsors to main 2 cars, and allow"one off" different liveries and sponsorship per race, they could also try different set ups or parts on car 3.

Then young promising or pay drivers can have a few races, bring their own sponsor, or find a local national brand, but not international (eg telstra australia, holden, tpg australia, local banks etc) brand who would like their name on a car when the race is in their country but not so much in other countries. So it actually could be additional team positive income stream. And a wannabe driver can find the cash to run a handful of races a lot easier than a whole year.

In any given race only the teams best finishing two cars gives points to constructors champ. So if the guy or part is hopeless, no loss no less points anyway. But maybe a young star could show his talent and get snapped up for the main game, like schumi snr did....

If the grid wont support 30 cars, then have longer qually session q4.... only the top 25 or so start... 5 pack up and watch the race at the end of q4
there was always "prequalifying" up to md 80s. nobody was guaranteed a start.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

Thats why i like 3 car teams

......

If the grid wont support 30 cars, then have longer qually session q4.... only the top 25 or so start... 5 pack up and watch the race at the end of q4
there was always "prequalifying" up to md 80s. nobody was guaranteed a start.

As soon as you get 'pre-qualifying' meaning cars miss out then those cars/teams will drop out so you'll be down to a smaller grid again. You'd end up with 3 car teams for the big teams and the small teams would vanish.

Drifting off topic more than slightly here though

[bathurst77]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

As soon as you get 'pre-qualifying' meaning cars miss out then those cars/teams will drop out so you'll be down to a smaller grid again. You'd end up with 3 car teams for the big teams and the small teams would vanish.

Drifting off topic more than slightly here though

this is something to be considered.

Obviously 3 races in a williams or haas would be a lot cheaper for a hopeful than 3 races in the merc. But its still extra revenue for the lower team. But if a hot shot scrapes up enough for a few weeks in Haas and puts either of the main drivers to shame or just drives "better than the car" he has proven a point and the big teams will take note (ala Schumacher in jordan, or even young george right now) And when you think about it, it would actually be easier for a talent to look good in a lower team. In merc or redbull the 2 full drivers are the best and the car is super capable. In a lower team the drivers you are being compared too are less good (yet) and the car more limited so easier to drive to its limit. So that might make a drive in a haas or williams more attractive and thus expensive... good for the team

And they still would get all the FPs and qually (if only the first bit) to repay the sponsors.

ok each team gets to run car 3 in selected races only... so not every team runs car 3 every weekend, say 25 cars each week, mixed up so everyone gets to race everyone else.

The main 20 cars are guaranteed a start, the knock out is only for the 3rd cars.

I dunno im freeballing... but im sure smarter heads could work it out. It worked ok up to the 80s.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

It worked ok up to the 80s.

Which was a long time ago.

The series is into the 72nd season, and for the last 36 seasons there has been a restriction of 2-car team maximum.

So I get the statement that it worked up to the '80s, but that was 37 years ago. From 1963, entering more than two cars was by exception - so in reality we're only looking at 3-car teams being the norm for 17 seasons, 19 seasons of it being an occasional occurrence and 36 seasons of it not being permitted.

[chillibowl]

im all in favour of finding more ways to get young drivers into seats, but if they are all going to be seats bought and paid for through mom and dads corporation then no thank you.

i was hoping the budget cap would have greatly reduced the need to bring in pay drivers and/or for a hot minute i probably even justified some of these pay drivers as decent enough (Stroll for example and even Latifi is proving himself somewhat capable - obviously a Canadian bias though).

but in all seriousness, even if you added more seats there is no guarantee they would go to capable youngsters.

in all likelihood the costs of running a 3rd car would be subsidized fully by children of the rich and wealthy hobbyists.

[Pandamasque]

The extremely sparse pre-season testing makes rookies less attractive too. This year all of the rookies and practically everyone who changed team struggled at the beginning of the season. Some longer than others.

[bathurst77]

There is vast misconception about pay drivrs.
There have always been pay drivers, who bring money to the team in return for a drive. Most drivers have to pay for their seat for the 1st few years.
Normally its not daddies money, but impressed "believer" sponsors. A good young driver with good results in junior classes "generally" can attract a small war chest... maybe not enough for 1 of only 20 full times seats but enough for one of a good number of 2 or 3 races drives

Norris pays, or paid
Niki Lauda paid for his drive at first
Schumi senior brought mercedes cash to Jordan
Perez paid for his 1st season or two

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

Thats why i like 3 car teams

but make 3rd car "ever changing", must have x number of different drivers in a season, can run different livery and sponsors to main 2 cars, and allow"one off" different liveries and sponsorship per race, they could also try different set ups or parts on car 3.

Then young promising or pay drivers can have a few races, bring their own sponsor, or find a local national brand, but not international (eg telstra australia, holden, tpg australia, local banks etc) brand who would like their name on a car when the race is in their country but not so much in other countries. So it actually could be additional team positive income stream. And a wannabe driver can find the cash to run a handful of races a lot easier than a whole year.

In any given race only the teams best finishing two cars gives points to constructors champ. So if the guy or part is hopeless, no loss no less points anyway. But maybe a young star could show his talent and get snapped up for the main game, like schumi snr did....

If the grid wont support 30 cars, then have longer qually session q4.... only the top 25 or so start... 5 pack up and watch the race at the end of q4
there was always "prequalifying" up to md 80s. nobody was guaranteed a start.

No Prequalifying back in the very early years 1950 -to about the 70s. Grids weren't that big. The situation at the end of the turbo era in late 80s created a few years where as many as 30 or so cars wanted in but Bernie's arrangement was for 26 starters so those not guaranteed a start from the previous years results had to pre-qualify before joining the 26 car qualifying.
This only went on for 3 or 4 years until the grids thinned out a bit.
Formal prequalifying was in 1988-1992. There were more than 30 entries but only 30 were allowed to run on the circuit.
Only the fastest 26 got to start.
By 1993 entries were down to 26 approximately in total.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Aston Martin is actually only a sponsor deal.

'Aston Martin start work on new F1 factory and wind tunnel campus at Silverstone base'



If Aston Martin is only a sponsor deal, then every team in F1 is.
Brackley team - owned by Daimler, Wolff and INEOS - sponsored by Mercedes.
Milton Keynes team - owned by Yoovidhya and Mateschitz - sponsored by Red Bull.
Woking team - owned by Bahrain Mumtalakat Holding Company - sponsored by McLaren.



Aston Martin keen for German driver to race for them in 2022

'Aston Martin say they are committed to Sebastian Vettel and are keen for him to race for them in 2022.

Vettel, 34, has a contractual option he can exercise to continue with the team after this season, which has a due date in the coming weeks.

Aston Martin team owner Lawrence Stroll said: "We are delighted with Sebastian. It is our firm intention to continue with him next year and beyond."

Stroll said he expected an answer on Vettel's future "imminently".'

[chillibowl]

been seeing videos on the socials about them talking on the logic of building F1's first new factory in about 20 years.

not the thread for it, but given how much organizational structures have change in that time maybe there is value in a new factory design approach or are they just tilting at windmills as they try to reinvent the wheel?

but yes, this project surely sets them apart from just being a mere sponsor because sponsors dont build full scale wind tunnels!

[S griffin]

I wish them best of luck with their new factory, shows how ambitious they are

And I see no problem with keeping Vettel. Even though he’s probably past his peak and is still occasionally making silly errors, he has had some great performances this year and seems a lot more relaxed than his last few years with Ferrari

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

not the thread for it, but given how much organizational structures have change in that time maybe there is value in a new factory design approach or are they just tilting at windmills as they try to reinvent the wheel?

If the topic has legs someone can move it to a new thread. But that is an interesting question.

I saw the news via this article. https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/a...n-mtc/6667398/

I find this quote to your point...

But whereas the famous MTC was laid out in the vision of Ron Dennis as a truly spectacular statement of intent for the Woking-based organisation, there is somewhat an argument of it being fashion over function.

While still looking amazing, it’s been cited as having a sometimes sterile atmosphere inside, and has struggled at times to adapt to the fast-changing needs of a modern F1 and automotive operation despite its immense size.

Creative building design in which "form" and a desire for a unique look become a priority. They can be beautiful and potentially iconic (MTC, Apple Park aka Apple Spaceship, etc.) but run the risk of being expensive (short and long term), not particularly functional nor flexible to adapt to usage beyond the initial configuration. I think those are the solutions that are trying to "reinvent the wheel". Usually by organizations that seem to have money to burn.

I look at the renderings of the new Aston facility and I see what looks to be relatively ordinary commercial construction. There clearly is some style applied to the facade, but in general it is bland. I think that is hopeful in that maybe they are focusing on a cost effective, flexible and adaptive design that can adapt to future needs.

Richard

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

If Aston Martin is only a sponsor deal, then every team in F1 is.

Don’t get your point, as Aston Martin has zero ownership of the team. The team is owned by an Aston shareholder. Aston sponsors the team.

[broadrun96]

Wow, that's not even splitting hairs. You're trying to split atoms to seem smart but only look like you're trying to prove something.

It's ALL Stroll and Friends money regardless of how you want to pretend it's split up

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Wow, that's not even splitting hairs. You're trying to split atoms to seem smart but only look like you're trying to prove something.

Come on dude, there's no need for that. Earlier in this thread I asked peebee2 to make his points with less snark and he responded amicably. Please do the same. I for one would be grateful. Thank you .

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

Come on dude, there's no need for that. Earlier in this thread I asked peebee2 to make his points with less snark and he responded amicably. Please do the same. I for one would be grateful. Thank you .

Thanks. Some of the people who own the 83% of Aston Martin that Stroll doesn’t own might take issue with the naivety that “It”s ALL Stroll and Friends money.”

The team has nothing to do with Aston Martin. It’s the same team as last year with new sponsor signage over the door.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

'Aston Martin start work on new F1 factory and wind tunnel campus at Silverstone base'



If Aston Martin is only a sponsor deal, then every team in F1 is.
Brackley team - owned by Daimler, Wolff and INEOS - sponsored by Mercedes.
Milton Keynes team - owned by Yoovidhya and Mateschitz - sponsored by Red Bull.
Woking team - owned by Bahrain Mumtalakat Holding Company - sponsored by McLaren.



Aston Martin keen for German driver to race for them in 2022

'Aston Martin say they are committed to Sebastian Vettel and are keen for him to race for them in 2022.

Vettel, 34, has a contractual option he can exercise to continue with the team after this season, which has a due date in the coming weeks.

Aston Martin team owner Lawrence Stroll said: "We are delighted with Sebastian. It is our firm intention to continue with him next year and beyond."

Stroll said he expected an answer on Vettel's future "imminently".'

You mean to say "Paddock Insiders" don't refer to them only as "The Silverstone Team"??? Colour me shocked