BNT NZSuperTourer 2015

[Speed-King]

Racing "touring cars" doesn't seem to be pulling people in anymore worldwide as it did, sports cars seems to pull more interest.

I think we'll see the pendulum swinging back towards the tourer side of things in the none too distant future... GT3 is really beginning to crumble in Europe, though for now mostly in the national series, and touring cars - especially with the new TCR class - is making major inroads once again.

Will be interesting to see if that will become a world wide phenomenon or limited to Europe.

[NZSTfan]

Originally Posted by on_to_it

Stu, I like your enthusiasm but if you look back a bit, they have tried this. It was called Challenge Cup, and it offered all sorts of incentives. And what happened?

Hi OTI, yes I am well aware of the now defunct V8CC. I did mention that in my post. But anyway, what I was getting at is that I had heard from someone high up in the game that the TLs' wanted to join the ST circus....whether that means a reinvention of a CC style series I don't know.
But what I do find interesting is that if the TL guys do genuinely want to ride the coat tails of ST, then what happens to the NZV8TC championship which is comprised mainly of TL cars? Which brings me to my next point:

Promax wrote this:

funny.. it was only a couple of weeks ago.. people associated with ST teams publicly accused the TLX of being a moving chicane. the TLX was not fit to race with ST. yet now the TLX and TL are seen as the saviour of the ST class?

I don't recall anyone saying that the TLX and TL cars will be the 'saviour' of ST. Quite the opposite in fact, I think that ST may be the saviour for the TLX and TL's if some sort of merge happens. It will be under ST terms for sure, not NZV8 terms. And if it doesn't happen, then one would argue what is the point of the TLX championship? If the TL's go, what do you have left? 1 Nissan, 2 Toyotas and 2 Holdens (remembering that the only FG is locked up in Varneys shed and has not been raced since Varney parked it up - which is another moot point as NZV8 continue to push the fact that Ford are in their stable. No its not, the Ford FG has not raced at all this season.)

I had a look at the NZV8 facebook page last night and was horrified by what I saw. They were basically gloating at the fact that they had managed to race in the South Island, and made reference to the speedcafe.com article about ST cancelling the SI rounds. People responded in their masses that this was not the right thing to do, i.e. put the knife in when the other is struggling. Not a good look for NZV8 was the general theme with many others posting about the fact that they only have 5 cars, with only 2 of them being competitive. I noticed this morning that NZV8's have done the right thing and removed the article and its posts.

Either way you look at it, NZ Touring cars (ST and NZV8s) are both shagged at the moment. The public have had enough, and I feel for those who have bought tickets to the cancelled SI rounds. This is a sad state of affairs right now, and people on the outside looking in, must think that NZ can't organise the proverbial in a brewery.

But I still stand by my comments that I believe one party is doing its best to repair itself for next season. And what that will look like is anyone's guess.

Interesting comment from speed-king about the GT3 thing in Europe seemingly going out of fashion....

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

Hi OTI, yes I am well aware of the now defunct V8CC. I did mention that in my post. But anyway, what I was getting at is that I had heard from someone high up in the game that the TLs' wanted to join the ST circus....whether that means a reinvention of a CC style series I don't know.
But what I do find interesting is that if the TL guys do genuinely want to ride the coat tails of ST, then what happens to the NZV8TC championship which is comprised mainly of TL cars? Which brings me to my next point:

Promax wrote this:

funny.. it was only a couple of weeks ago.. people associated with ST teams publicly accused the TLX of being a moving chicane. the TLX was not fit to race with ST. yet now the TLX and TL are seen as the saviour of the ST class?

I don't recall anyone saying that the TLX and TL cars will be the 'saviour' of ST. Quite the opposite in fact, I think that ST may be the saviour for the TLX and TL's if some sort of merge happens. It will be under ST terms for sure, not NZV8 terms. And if it doesn't happen, then one would argue what is the point of the TLX championship? If the TL's go, what do you have left? 1 Nissan, 2 Toyotas and 2 Holdens (remembering that the only FG is locked up in Varneys shed and has not been raced since Varney parked it up - which is another moot point as NZV8 continue to push the fact that Ford are in their stable. No its not, the Ford FG has not raced at all this season.)

I had a look at the NZV8 facebook page last night and was horrified by what I saw. They were basically gloating at the fact that they had managed to race in the South Island, and made reference to the speedcafe.com article about ST cancelling the SI rounds. People responded in their masses that this was not the right thing to do, i.e. put the knife in when the other is struggling. Not a good look for NZV8 was the general theme with many others posting about the fact that they only have 5 cars, with only 2 of them being competitive. I noticed this morning that NZV8's have done the right thing and removed the article and its posts.

Either way you look at it, NZ Touring cars (ST and NZV8s) are both shagged at the moment. The public have had enough, and I feel for those who have bought tickets to the cancelled SI rounds. This is a sad state of affairs right now, and people on the outside looking in, must think that NZ can't organise the proverbial in a brewery.

But I still stand by my comments that I believe one party is doing its best to repair itself for next season. And what that will look like is anyone's guess.

Interesting comment from speed-king about the GT3 thing in Europe seemingly going out of fashion....

TLX is no savior for Supertourers or for themselves either. They've been out for a few years now and it's never caught on. And if one was to argue it has, then where does it go from here? I don't see a big long term future for it.

[E36ST]

Interestingly the Timaru & Christchurch rounds are still showing on their calendar:

http://www.nzsupertourers.co.nz/calendar/

But when you click on 'Buy Tickets', you get '404 Not found. Something has gone wrong'.

http://tickets.nzsupertourers.co.nz/...s-christchurch

I presume that the error message is referring to the series itself.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by E36ST

Interestingly the Timaru & Christchurch rounds are still showing on their calendar:

http://www.nzsupertourers.co.nz/calendar/

But when you click on 'Buy Tickets', you get '404 Not found. Something has gone wrong'.

http://tickets.nzsupertourers.co.nz/...s-christchurch

I presume that the error message is referring to the series itself.

I thought I saw the support series were still going to race. I believe that was in the speedcafe article that initially reported the news.

[NZSTfan]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

TLX is no savior for Supertourers or for themselves either. They've been out for a few years now and it's never caught on. And if one was to argue it has, then where does it go from here? I don't see a big long term future for it.

Agree Mstar. But the fact still remains that a merge may be on the cards. Otherwise either the TLX dies and becomes GT cars, or ST dies and they become GT cars. As someone has already mentioned, would there be room for 20 or so ST's to find new racing homes if it all went belly up? Fairly easy I would have thought to find new racing homes for 6 or so TLX's..

But anyway, good people have invested their $$ into either category. I don't see it being fair that one should effectively 'win' over the other....I used to think that way, but not anymore.

What I think should happen is to take the best aspects from both concepts and bring them together for a united 15/16 season

That should mean the ST chassis stays, as its a proven product, and is basically the same as the Aussie SC. The Gearbox and diff should also remain, which leaves the engine. Many people (myself NOT included) don't like the ST concept because of the chevy engine. So one way to achieve some sort of 'keep everyone happy' approach could be to ditch the LS7 and run Coyotes in the Fords, and LS3's in the Holdens, VK56 for the Nissan(s) and the TRD unit for the Toyota. By doing that you get the best of both worlds....and that is a kick-a**e chassis and box, but with the manufacturers engine, hopefully turned up to volume 11 so we can still have cars that have similar performance to a V8SC. You then have virtually the same product as V8SC.

The downside of that is the sheer cost involved with gaining parity, and the likelihood of increased cheating, and the big budget teams win all the time. But maybe that's what punters want?

This idea has been talked about on here sometime ago. Social media also talks about this being the best way forward to bring back the fans.

And then in a few years when the V8 is supposedly dead and no one is buying big cars anymore, the chassis could easily be adapted to take a smaller car shell and engine package, and then we carry on moving forward.

[Speed-King]

Interesting comment from speed-king about the GT3 thing in Europe seemingly going out of fashion....

I wouldn't go quite that far yet, but you know that old saying about third generations and how are the ones to mess things up? It's the same with most racing car classes: Class is conceived - class matures - class prices itself out of existence. And guess what, all the new 2015 cars coming out basically are GT3's third generation (the original manufacturers from 06 being the first, and the Audi-BMW-Mercedes-stuff that came out from 2009 to 2011 being the second)...

[mikuni]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

This idea has been talked about on here sometime ago. Social media also talks about this being the best way forward to bring back the fans.

If you began to talk about spending yet more money for parity for any of the cars the owners would surely ask you politely to stop talking. I'm sure they are just as over it as everyone else.

These guys have proven they can't play nice, so I think they should just all be locked in the same sand pit for a year or two until they can prove they can play together. After this, and once MSNZ and operators of ST have worked out their differences (lol), then they can look forward to the next 5 years and make a decision on what to do next that will work into the future. Something that is viable without reinventing the wheel.

I was a fan of the concept of V8ST when it came out, but I do prefer the DNA to be retained more in the way of V8SC. I'll accept that as a much smaller nation with limited manufacturer support, this is not viable for NZ as it is for Aus.

I'd quite like to see NZ run a grouped bunch of ST/TLX/TL for the next few years, giving out chocolate fish to the winner, and perhaps adopt some other form of touring car racing after that. Whether it be TCR, a mini-V8SC copy cat or what I'm not really fussed, but what ever happens it won't magically solve all of the problems with motorsport anyway. It's just one piece of the puzzle.

[NZSTfan]

^^ Hence why I also stated the 'downside would be the sheer cost involved with gaining parity'

(and yes, wouldn't it be nice to see MSNZ play ball properly. And that has been done to death in another thread)

[promax]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

Agree Mstar. But the fact still remains that a merge may be on the cards. Otherwise either the TLX dies and becomes GT cars, or ST dies and they become GT cars. As someone has already mentioned, would there be room for 20 or so ST's to find new racing homes if it all went belly up? Fairly easy I would have thought to find new racing homes for 6 or so TLX's..

But anyway, good people have invested their $$ into either category. I don't see it being fair that one should effectively 'win' over the other....I used to think that way, but not anymore.

What I think should happen is to take the best aspects from both concepts and bring them together for a united 15/16 season

That should mean the ST chassis stays, as its a proven product, and is basically the same as the Aussie SC. The Gearbox and diff should also remain, which leaves the engine. Many people (myself NOT included) don't like the ST concept because of the chevy engine. So one way to achieve some sort of 'keep everyone happy' approach could be to ditch the LS7 and run Coyotes in the Fords, and LS3's in the Holdens, VK56 for the Nissan(s) and the TRD unit for the Toyota. By doing that you get the best of both worlds....and that is a kick-a**e chassis and box, but with the manufacturers engine, hopefully turned up to volume 11 so we can still have cars that have similar performance to a V8SC. You then have virtually the same product as V8SC.

The downside of that is the sheer cost involved with gaining parity, and the likelihood of increased cheating, and the big budget teams win all the time. But maybe that's what punters want?

This idea has been talked about on here sometime ago. Social media also talks about this being the best way forward to bring back the fans.

And then in a few years when the V8 is supposedly dead and no one is buying big cars anymore, the chassis could easily be adapted to take a smaller car shell and engine package, and then we carry on moving forward.

who said TLX is going to die like ST? the concept of the two classes are totally different. ST was meant not only destroy NZV8.. but also run V8SC out of the country. even when ST struggled with numbers.. there were cries from the ST brigade.. about how superior their product is compared to the V8SC Development Series. mean while the TLX guys are happy to do their own.. without all the fanfare and bs.

[promax]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

I had a look at the NZV8 facebook page last night and was horrified by what I saw. They were basically gloating at the fact that they had managed to race in the South Island, and made reference to the speedcafe.com article about ST cancelling the SI rounds. People responded in their masses that this was not the right thing to do, i.e. put the knife in when the other is struggling. Not a good look for NZV8 was the general theme with many others posting about the fact that they only have 5 cars, with only 2 of them being competitive. I noticed this morning that NZV8's have done the right thing and removed the article and its posts.

was NZV8 gloating.. or was the person hired to run the NZV8 page playing silly buggers? it's more likely to be the latter.. don't you think? it might be a smart idea for NZV8 to replace the guy.. as it was pretty poor form. reading the comments in the post in question.. it was rather interest to see a current ST driver talk himself up like he's some sort of 'racing god'. 'racing god' huh? daddy's wallet.. not talent.. probably got him his drive

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by promax

who said TLX is going to die like ST? the concept of the two classes are totally different. ST was meant not only destroy NZV8.. but also run V8SC out of the country. even when ST struggled with numbers.. there were cries from the ST brigade.. about how superior their product is compared to the V8SC Development Series. mean while the TLX guys are happy to do their own.. without all the fanfare and bs.

...and like ST without many cars...

[promax]

Originally Posted by FIRE

...and like ST without many cars...

true.. but they've never had many cars.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by FIRE

...and like ST without many cars...

Correct Fire, even after the Tasman car was conveniently 'written off' their is still a total of 19 V8ST complying cars in New Zealand and 18 owners.

There is a total of 6 TLX cars, and 4 of them are owned by 2 owners.

We cant change what happened, and who was right and who was wrong and all the other augments that still rage on, mainly perpetuated by people on both side that don't have a clue what really went on and frankly speaking I don't think they care they just hate.

However what we can do is move on and we have to move on together and that include's the older TL cars as only then will we have 20 plus car grids, which will gradually build because second hand ST's and TLX's are now very cheap and will probably get even cheaper over the winter.

Working together V8 Tin-top racing in New Zealand can rise Phoenix like from the ash's of the FIRE [pun intended] and in doing so help rebuild premier motor racing in New Zealand. It will only happen through the goodwill of the competitor because no organization least of all MSNZ will ever bring it about.

[mikuni]

Lets bring in a few old project blueprint V8SC and just have an all out V8TC series with 30+ car grids and chocolate fish (nothing more) for the winner of each class. No one will know what's going on, but it will be a hell of a thing for the spectator to watch. Maybe even consider handicapping based on the fastest quali from each class.

It would just be good to watch and I really think that type of thing is the only thing that will get people back there.

[20b]

Originally Posted by mikuni

Lets bring in a few old project blueprint V8SC and just have an all out V8TC series with 30+ car grids and chocolate fish (nothing more) for the winner of each class. No one will know what's going on, but it will be a hell of a thing for the spectator to watch. Maybe even consider handicapping based on the fastest quali from each class.

It would just be good to watch and I really think that type of thing is the only thing that will get people back there.

Who pays?

[mikuni]

Competitors would buy them and bring them in if there was a series to run them in, that would get decent fields and participate in decent meetings. There are always strange people like us looking to pick up a car to run in something. The opportunity for an average joe to run a proper V8 touring car in a decent field in NZ is something a lot of people would be interested in.

The only big issue is continuity. No one really knows for sure if that type of thing would get the St/TL/TLX cars out of the sheds, and for how long. The owners could be too badly burnt to even bother with motorsport anymore. Who knows?

[promax]

Originally Posted by mikuni

Competitors would buy them and bring them in if there was a series to run them in, that would get decent fields and participate in decent meetings. There are always strange people like us looking to pick up a car to run in something. The opportunity for an average joe to run a proper V8 touring car in a decent field in NZ is something a lot of people would be interested in.

The only big issue is continuity. No one really knows for sure if that type of thing would get the St/TL/TLX cars out of the sheds, and for how long. The owners could be too badly burnt to even bother with motorsport anymore. Who knows?

going by comments from current and former ST team members.. I can't see any of these happening. it's a shame though. there are enough aussie and kiwi V8s in the country to get ticket paying fans interested again.

[20b]

Originally Posted by mikuni

Competitors would buy them and bring them in if there was a series to run them in, that would get decent fields and participate in decent meetings. There are always strange people like us looking to pick up a car to run in something. The opportunity for an average joe to run a proper V8 touring car in a decent field in NZ is something a lot of people would be interested in.

The only big issue is continuity. No one really knows for sure if that type of thing would get the St/TL/TLX cars out of the sheds, and for how long. The owners could be too badly burnt to even bother with motorsport anymore. Who knows?

Yes people may be interested, but translating that interest into action is difficult. I've seen it myself, forty or so people are interested in the idea and say they'll be there for round one - the first round rolls around and there's only ten cars. In reality the closest thing you'll see to what you've mentioned is GT1/2, however the variance in skill level and cars makes it not all that viable to run as a premier class. Personally I don't think NZ should be aiming at a top tier series full of older cars, and I doubt the current car owners of SuperTourers and NZV8s would be find of the idea.

It's not feasible to just drop the NZV8s and SuperTourers. Ideally you'd want to get SuperTourers back to strength given the cars are already lying around doing not a hell of a lot.

[GHOGH]

Originally Posted by mikuni

Lets bring in a few old project blueprint V8SC and just have an all out V8TC series with 30+ car grids and chocolate fish (nothing more) for the winner of each class. No one will know what's going on, but it will be a hell of a thing for the spectator to watch. Maybe even consider handicapping based on the fastest quali from each class.

It would just be good to watch and I really think that type of thing is the only thing that will get people back there.

The used BF supercars are like Aus$100K and an NZV8 TL can be around NZ$30K.
http://v8touringcars.com.au/cars-for-sale/

[GT 86]

I had to endure listening to Mr Motorsport Brian Kelly on radio sport this morning bagging ST and saying that only four cars attended the last round.
This uninformed, biased journalist should of got trashed with the Motorsport company but that's what you get when you take backhanders from the sport.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

Correct Fire, even after the Tasman car was conveniently 'written off' their is still a total of 19 V8ST complying cars in New Zealand and 18 owners.

There is a total of 6 TLX cars, and 4 of them are owned by 2 owners.

We cant change what happened, and who was right and who was wrong and all the other augments that still rage on, mainly perpetuated by people on both side that don't have a clue what really went on and frankly speaking I don't think they care they just hate.

However what we can do is move on and we have to move on together and that include's the older TL cars as only then will we have 20 plus car grids, which will gradually build because second hand ST's and TLX's are now very cheap and will probably get even cheaper over the winter.

Working together V8 Tin-top racing in New Zealand can rise Phoenix like from the ash's of the FIRE [pun intended] and in doing so help rebuild premier motor racing in New Zealand. It will only happen through the goodwill of the competitor because no organization least of all MSNZ will ever bring it about.

I think it is good to know what went wrong so what failed is not doomed to repeat again, but yes this is where it all ended up, in the crapper, and now the question is where to go from here. Neither series can continue with a couple of TLX cars or a couple of Supertourers, it's an untenable situation, so it is time to call it quits and put it to bed for good? Or if not, who puts it all together and how?

Lots of questions still to be answered and I can't say I'm optimistic. If the whole thing implodes completely, I guess it will be clean sheet of paper time.

[Southern Man]

Originally Posted by GT 86

but that's what you get when you take backhanders from the sport.

That is a big call, you obviously have evidence of that accusation

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by Southern Man

That is a big call, you obviously have evidence of that accusation

Carl, I think GT86 is just venting his frustration with Brian Kelly one-eyed view on motor racing in general, I am sure he does not really think money changes hands, however, what is an indisputable fact is that Brian Kelly is 'welded at the hip to MSNZ' and that nonsense he spruck'd on about that there were only 4 ST's at Hamton Downs, shows just what how little Brian Kelly really knows about the sport.

[Southern Man]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

Carl, I think GT86 is just venting his frustration with Brian Kelly one-eyed view on motor racing in general, I am sure he does not really think money changes hands, however, what is an indisputable fact is that Brian Kelly is 'welded at the hip to MSNZ' and that nonsense he spruck'd on about that there were only 4 ST's at Hamton Downs, shows just what how little Brian Kelly really knows about the sport.

Maybe so Mark but he needs to put his brain in gear before he engages his fingers.

Perhaps he has forgotten about some of the accusations levelled at some TV3 personal a year or so ago regarding impartiality of people in the news media.