2011 Bathurst 12 Hour

[DAVID PATERSON]

I'm going for the support races, but I've decided to stay on and watch the big race on Sunday.

[rich07]

Live streaming's back this year

http://www.bathurst12hour.com.au/wor...hurst-12-hour/

[E.B]

Originally Posted by rich07

Live streaming's back this year

http://www.bathurst12hour.com.au/wor...hurst-12-hour/

Last year's live streaming (and live chatroom) was brilliant for those of us languishing at home with nothing on TV.....

[ff s conscience]

Originally Posted by rich07

Nah that was a McLaren SLR GT that Mercedes ran a one make series for pro/am drivers in Europe for. From memory it was painted a sickly yellow color.

Hey Efioz care to expand on your 'patience' comment? I couldnt see one being raced in Australia, well for one its quite expensive and its a brand new car so it wouldnt be allowed to race as I know it in Aus GT unless a well known Mercedes enthusiast who also likes truck has brought one as a toy.........

ah ok, thanks...

and, did you know that there are at least 3 458 GT3 Ferraris ordered for Oz, that can't race in GT........ yet....


You CAN race an SLR or a 458 GT3 OUTSIDE of Oz GT though... fancy that

[Wood-duck]

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

Shoot too many arrows?, cmon you've got to be kidding.

I'm not making assertations about the crowd, the pro-prods/anti GT's (whatever you want to call yourselves) are mentioning crowds.

I'm biting my tongue on many of these negative posts such is the junk thats being written...either get on board with the event or leave it alone. Feel free to resume normal negative transmission post event if you feel it was a disaster.

Last time I looked, the heading was Bathurst 12 hour, not whine about production cars.

Look, I am not Anti-GT.

I quite like watching GT3 racing, and the European stuff is very good as well, the cars are impressive. I can see why people are excited to see them race. Hell, I am excited to see them race around Bathurst.. but..

What we are simply debating here is the merit of replacing the Production cars with GT cars in the 12 hour race. I might have a Production car slant on my views as I have been involved with the race since it was brought back in 2007, and have supported it every year. The 12 hour has always been for Production cars.

Personally, I would prefer GT's race a 24 hour race.. if the 12 hour can be revived, why not the 24 hour as well ??? Then you have the night running that everyone is so keen on seeing. It would be a great spectacle. Even though it has been tried before..

....Provided that it is sustainable and relevant - which is the big question mark over GT racing at present. What Production cars brought to the dance was a market relevant, cost effective medium for people to see cars they can actually buy, and the star drivers where slowly coming out of the woodwork to support it.

my views may differ from some people's thoughts, but that is what this forum is all about - expressing different points of view and sharing opinions.

I have said it before and I will say it again... Proof will be in the pudding on Sunday Feb 6...

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by Wood-duck

I have said it before and I will say it again... Proof will be in the pudding on Sunday Feb 6...

It definitely will be however it appears from all the noise from the organisers that if this doesn't work the more likely outcome is no race rather than going back to a production car race.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

It definitely will be however it appears from all the noise from the organisers that if this doesn't work the more likely outcome is no race rather than going back to a production car race.

.......a "dummy spit" from the organisers maybe?

[Sheep Stations]

Originally Posted by Wood-duck

Personally, I would prefer GT's race a 24 hour race.. if the 12 hour can be revived, why not the 24 hour as well ??? Then you have the night running that everyone is so keen on seeing. It would be a great spectacle. Even though it has been tried before..

....Provided that it is sustainable and relevant - which is the big question mark over GT racing at present. What Production cars brought to the dance was a market relevant, cost effective medium for people to see cars they can actually buy, and the star drivers where slowly coming out of the woodwork to support it.

my views may differ from some people's thoughts, but that is what this forum is all about - expressing different points of view and sharing opinions.

I have said it before and I will say it again... Proof will be in the pudding on Sunday Feb 6...

Why not 24 hours?...simple, the cost. If the spend is $120k for 12 hours on a GT, then at least double it for 24 hours.

Looks like relevance depends on which side of the street you stand...$180k Evo's (costs less for a well prepared 997 Cup Car), ageing WRX's, an elderly BMW, positively ancient Integra's sprinkled with a few Aust. V8's and little jiggers running around trying to crack 3.00 minutes.

Be still my beating heart....as a matter of fact after 12 hours of this 'spectacle' last year it nearly was.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by ff s conscience

ah ok, thanks...

and, did you know that there are at least 3 458 GT3 Ferraris ordered for Oz, that can't race in GT........ yet....

3? Great news! Any idea as to who?.. It'd nice to see them in Aus GT but at least they'll be downunder.

Originally Posted by ff s conscience

You CAN race an SLR or a 458 GT3 OUTSIDE of Oz GT though... fancy that

You sure can, you'd know all about that with Ted Hughlin's Gallardo. Shame there's not a Lambo in the 12hr though.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by Wood-duck

Look, I am not Anti-GT.

I quite like watching GT3 racing, and the European stuff is very good as well, the cars are impressive. I can see why people are excited to see them race. Hell, I am excited to see them race around Bathurst.. but..

What we are simply debating here is the merit of replacing the Production cars with GT cars in the 12 hour race. I might have a Production car slant on my views as I have been involved with the race since it was brought back in 2007, and have supported it every year. The 12 hour has always been for Production cars.

Personally, I would prefer GT's race a 24 hour race.. if the 12 hour can be revived, why not the 24 hour as well ??? Then you have the night running that everyone is so keen on seeing. It would be a great spectacle. Even though it has been tried before..

....Provided that it is sustainable and relevant - which is the big question mark over GT racing at present. What Production cars brought to the dance was a market relevant, cost effective medium for people to see cars they can actually buy, and the star drivers where slowly coming out of the woodwork to support it.

my views may differ from some people's thoughts, but that is what this forum is all about - expressing different points of view and sharing opinions.

I have said it before and I will say it again... Proof will be in the pudding on Sunday Feb 6...

Here here,

As purely a spectator, i'd just personally much rather watch a series production race, especially around the Mountain, and as a spectator around the mountain, 28 cars leads to alot of boredom staring at empty tarmac...

Of course the writing will be on the wall for or against on the Sunday night after the race, but purely on entries so far, how can a switch to GTs be seen as a positive move so far, they've barely garnered half the entries to proddies had attracted in previous years!

[Sheep Stations]

I should resist but I can't help myself with some of these offerings...

If you'd rather watch what has previously been offered up instead of the GT's, than just grab your beach chair and perch on an overpass on the M1.

Plenty of Yaris' doing battle in peak hour, should be highly entertaining for some. And the sheer volume rather than quality should keep the feeble minded from distraction.

Personally, I think the race will be a real treat for the genuine motorsport fan that will appreciate the class(es) of race cars, the strategies and enjoy how it will play out.
Those who need constant X-Box-like game play to remain focussed...bring your computer for live streaming or a TV monitor.

Give the whole prod car thing a rest...

[6.213km]

Lets put this into perspective.

Australia has a population of approx 20 Million People.
Australia is a long long way from most of the major GT championships in the world.

Production cars as compared to GT cars are much more cost effective to run.

In the 2007 Bathurst 12 Hour there were 32 cars entered - 3 Mitsubishi Evos
In the 2008 Bathurst 12 Hour there were 35 cars entered - 6 Mitsubishi Evos
In the 2009 Bathurst 12 Hour there were 48 cars entered - 12 Mitsubishi Evos
In the 2010 Bathurst 12 Hour there were 42 cars entered - 10 Mitsubishi Evos

32 cars in the first year of a new race was an acceptable number. Year two was a let down with little growth on the previous year. 2009 a triumph, good field, great numbers, then last year, still a great field, but a slight drop in numbers.

This year we have 28 cars. A mix of GT cars and production cars. GT cars are more expensive to run, and so to attract a field even of this size is a good result.

Based on the numbers above production car interest in the race took three years to get to a really good level. It may be that long till GT grows to those levels. I just hope it is able to , and allow to happen.

Perhaps if there was a 55 car grid a the 12 Hour last year it might be a different story, but as has been said previously in this forum, without a viable production car series in Australia the limit in numbers had probably been reached.

Clearly manufacturers are not interested in a production car race at Bathurst anymore - its 2011, not 1961.

GT have a viable championship in Australia.

Personally - I'm happy to see the change. Hopefully, its given enough time to flourish.

Hopefully the organisers make enough money out of entries from support catagories and the main race to continue to grow this event that many people want to see succeed.

Next year lets hope we get more interest from the local GT scene, and from overseas... but the Audis alone this year will be worth going to see...

Ill miss the Yaris though...

[Oldtony]

Sorry to disagree SS but I guess if you run a Porsche it is hard to see what the great unwashed see in Prodcar racing.
I too hope that the GT event is a huge success, and the Audi entry gives it some hope of having some credibility. Would be there if it wasn't for this B****y flood messimg up my arrangements.
To me the problem is that the Australian sports fan, as opposed to the dedicated motor racing enthusiast just doesn't get exotic cars. Can remember Bathurst, think it was 56, when the AGP featured Ferraris, Maseratis etc and the TT featured Maserati 300s Aston DB3Ss and D & C type jags. All put on great races, but if you were out among the crowd the race that got everyone excited was Leo Geoghanin an FJ chasing the MacKay 3.8 Jaguar. Because the could relate.
That is the whole basis for the growth in motor racing over the intervening years. The V8s, and the spin off series including vthe utes are still trading on that link even if a significant number of the fans and viewers are starting to realise that they are being conned regarding the roadable status of the cars they are watching.
I am glad to see the GT cars getting an event of this status. What p*****es me off is that getting it has been at the cost of developing a race which could provide the basis for a continuation of big time televised motor sport with genuine public interest after the VESA series does a Gooney Bird act.
Here endeth the rant.

[bluesport]

SS, I don't think any of us want to watch a Yaris but we were hoping the event would evolve into one for more high performance production cars.......I can go and watch the empty tarmac the following week for free.

[ff s conscience]

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

Why not 24 hours?...simple, the cost. If the spend is $120k for 12 hours on a GT, then at least double it for 24 hours.

.

could not disagree more.

Dunno who does your numbers, but sack them.

By my reckoning, a 12 hr cost at least 75% if not 90% of the budget of a 24.

Either way, a GT car will be practically stuffed afterwards, and you've already paid all the travel/accom/logistics.

Very crudely, a 24 is a 12 with just extra fuel/tyres/brakes on top...


I'd much prefer 3 hr races, maybe a 6 at a push.

[Wood-duck]

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

Why not 24 hours?...simple, the cost. If the spend is $120k for 12 hours on a GT, then at least double it for 24 hours.

Looks like relevance depends on which side of the street you stand...$180k Evo's (costs less for a well prepared 997 Cup Car), ageing WRX's, an elderly BMW, positively ancient Integra's sprinkled with a few Aust. V8's and little jiggers running around trying to crack 3.00 minutes.

Be still my beating heart....as a matter of fact after 12 hours of this 'spectacle' last year it nearly was.

Ageing WRX's ??? Elderly BMW's ?? Ancient Integras ??

Here is a question for you sheep. How old is a 996 Cup car ?

My guess is what ? 2002, 2003 ??? 2004 latest ??

The Ageing, Elderly and Ancient cars you mention... are actually younger than some of the GT3 / Challenge cars entered this year !!

And a 997 would be what ? 2006/7 ? Again putting them around same vintage as the so-called fossils you have pointed out.

IIRC the Ferraris are around an 06/07 vintage as well ?

Hhhmmmmmmmm.....

$180k - yes, I believe that is the price for a turn-key TMR prepared EVO 10. I agree - ridiculous. You can buy one from a dealer for $50k and build it yourself. That is the beauty of this type of racing.

If you have a look around, you will see one of those "Ageing" WRX's for sale at a very reasonable $40k, that same car ran in the top 5 for most of the afternoon at the 12 hour last year with ok drivers (but no means superstars as the EVO's had driving them)... so you dont need a $180k car to be competitive.

Now - your still beating heart. Perhaps you are right, for mine the best 'spectacle' at the 12 hour meet last year was the Porsche "drivers" challenge races. Far and away the funniest thing I have seen since Eddie Murphy's "Delirious". It had half the pit lane doubled over in stitches it was that comical. The only problem is - it would have been funny if these blokes were not half serious...

[B24]

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

I should resist but I can't help myself with some of these offerings...

If you'd rather watch what has previously been offered up instead of the GT's, than just grab your beach chair and perch on an overpass on the M1.

Plenty of Yaris' doing battle in peak hour, should be highly entertaining for some. And the sheer volume rather than quality should keep the feeble minded from distraction.

Personally, I think the race will be a real treat for the genuine motorsport fan that will appreciate the class(es) of race cars, the strategies and enjoy how it will play out.
Those who need constant X-Box-like game play to remain focussed...bring your computer for live streaming or a TV monitor.

Give the whole prod car thing a rest...

+1

[B24]

A question.
Do you prefer watching Formula Ford or F1 live?
Which attracts more interest?
Which of the two get the heart racing?

Now change Formula Ford for production cars and F1 for GT.

Another point is in the éarly days' there was not the diversification of nationality there is now so there is a larger target market than "Aussie blokes" at the track which may have something to do with interest in australian made cars in that era.

I was there for the 12hr for the first few years only attracting one outsider to come along. At the 24hr 6 fiends came along for some fantastic memories, in three weeks time I have 20 cars and people coming along for the simple fact the GT cars are racing. If everyone who came to the 12hr last year could do the same the crowd could possibly break the 500 mark!
Seriously it will be a larger crowd than the prod 12hr event, it will succeed, so you can have a cup of tea and cake then relax. You dont have to come or even watch the event. We wont miss you or send a card...

What amazes me is the beloved prods are racing, the older era group A/C are also racing that weekend too.

So, what ever the problem is, for the love of god... get over it.

[B24]

Another point is regarding the 3/F458.
Maybe there are for nexts years 12hr and not AGT

Who knows

[ff s conscience]

Originally Posted by B24

Another point is regarding the 3/F458.
Maybe there are for nexts years 12hr and not AGT

Who knows

No, they're not.

Just toys. One may race after a while, but not anytime this year I wouldn't think.

[Spiller]

For those in the know, had the proddies kept the event exclusively, would the entries have grown? There's comments that it was gaining momentum, but given the talk of bringing the EVO's back into line, and given the amount of them in last years race, would they have all turned up again?

Truth is, that Production cars will always suffer because one car will dominate, No-one will invest too much in a car because in 12 months time another car comes out that is better again, so you need to keep buying and building cars if you want to play for outright. Then there is the ego issue of "they are cheating because my car is as good as it can be but they are beating me" that every class suffers from, but proddies get it worse because nobody knows the true capabilities of the cars and there is no parity.

I don't mean it to be an attack, It's just that the talk of hi-jack / stolen etc. is getting really old. Proddies are still welcome, you just aren't the big fish anymore. The best way to get something happening again would be to support the event, and show how good the production guys could do it, put together your own highlights package etc. Carrying on about how someone stole your event will ony give you a sore neck from looking backwards. You can enter and have a 12 hour race at Bathurst, and race against the same cars, its not the GT guys fault that more proddies aren't entered.

BTW I'm not affiliated with either. I see merit in all forms of motorsport, and enjoy watching all forms, but to me, I'd much rather see 10 GT cars or even 2 Joest Audi's at the mount than 10 evo's and a few others scattered about anyday. GT's have thier own issues and would have more entries if not for the "you cant race a current car without x, x and x", hopefully that mentality falls away and a true international GT race will grow, but it needs a chance.

[Crash Test]

Originally Posted by Spiller

Truth is, that Production cars will always suffer because one car will dominate, No-one will invest too much in a car because in 12 months time another car comes out that is better again, so you need to keep buying and building cars if you want to play for outright.

Hrmmm, that makes precious little sense.

Last year at the 12 Hour there were six different model cars from five different manufacturers in the top seven. In conditions that were perfect for the EVO Xs, they got knocked off by a four year old BMW, and rightly or wrong an EVO IX. The first of the Xs only just held out a three year old rear wheel drive station wagon! There were only three new cars in the top 10...

[Sheep Stations]

Originally Posted by ff s conscience

could not disagree more.

Dunno who does your numbers, but sack them.

By my reckoning, a 12 hr cost at least 75% if not 90% of the budget of a 24.

Either way, a GT car will be practically stuffed afterwards, and you've already paid all the travel/accom/logistics.

Very crudely, a 24 is a 12 with just extra fuel/tyres/brakes on top...


I'd much prefer 3 hr races, maybe a 6 at a push.

Very crudely...at 120k (and I am refering to my prefered vehicles) it includes gearbox/engine refresh plus usual consumables like clutch/wheel bearings etc prior to the event and after 24h you will need to do it all again, not so in general after 12hours. Hence double it.

If we're talking about one of your rigs then your optimism is refreshing.

[Spiller]

Originally Posted by Crash Test

Hrmmm, that makes precious little sense.

Last year at the 12 Hour there were six different model cars from five different manufacturers in the top seven. In conditions that were perfect for the EVO Xs, they got knocked off by a four year old BMW, and rightly or wrong an EVO IX. The first of the Xs only just held out a three year old rear wheel drive station wagon! There were only three new cars in the top 10...

On outright standings maybe... Lap times tell a different story. Just because people cant get their cars to stay together or not catch fire, doesn't mean it's not the case. The BMW is up there, the Mustang was an invite car. The HSV with gun drivers was nearly 4 seconds off the pace. So the choice of 3 cars maybe (STI 2 seconds off)? And how long until there is another EVO or STI variant, or BMW bring out a 4l 3 series?

I obviously cannot get the lap time for the EVO 9 that was excluded - but it isn't there because the times dont count.

02:31.0 EVO X Salmon/White/Tulloch
02:31.3 EVO X Hill/Bana/Leahey
02:31.4 EVO X Pearson/Glenney/Bargs
02:31.5 BMW 335 Holt/Morris/Bowe
02:31.6 EVO X Crompton/Seton/King
02:32.1 EVO X Owen/Koundouris/Koundouris
02:32.5 EVO X Crimp/Luff/Kostera
02:33.4 STI Hunter/Herridge/Mawer
02:33.9 Mustang Bright/Simonsen/Zukanovic
02:34.8 R8 Wagon Pretty/Jone/McConville
02:35.7 WRX Castle/Wood/Wimmer
02:36.0 F6 Douglas/Moffat/Hislop
02:36.7 EVO X Conroy/Robson/Brame
02:36.9 EVO VII Pollicina/O'Dowd/Middleton
02:37.4 VE Ute Johson/Callaghan/Letcher
02:37.8 VE SS Walden/Walden/Auld
02:38.8 VY HSV Alford/Nesbitt/Cramp/Heward
02:39.3 VY HSV Wilson/Fabris/Emery
02:39.6 XR8 Ute Dunn/Fisher/Elsegood
02:39.9 Mazda 3 Camilleri/Nicholas
02:40.6 EVO 9 Quinn/Quinn/Twigg

[Crash Test]

Originally Posted by Spiller

On outright standings maybe... Lap times tell a different story. Just because people cant get their cars to stay together or not catch fire, doesn't mean it's not the case. The BMW is up there, the Mustang was an invite car. The HSV with gun drivers was nearly 4 seconds off the pace. So the choice of 3 cars maybe (STI 2 seconds off)? And how long until there is another EVO or STI variant, or BMW bring out a 4l 3 series?
[/FONT]

Huh? I thought it was a 12 hour race? When has setting lap records been an important factor in endurance racing? Look at TMR last year- a rocketship no doubt, but there aren't many trophies given out for blowing up or planting it in the fence.