24h Nürburgring/VLN

[Speed-King]

I pray the injured pull through.

Apparently things aren't looking too bad in that regard. News on the radio just said "no life threatening injuries".

[rich07]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Apparently things aren't looking too bad in that regard. News on the radio just said "no life threatening injuries".

That's good to hear.

[thetool]

The cars are simply too fast for the track. It's a great track for non-aero dependent touring / GT cars... not a good track for proper sportscars.

[CTD]

Very sad news, and my thoughts to the family of the deceased and those injured. Accidents like this is freakish, and this we should remember.

However many of you who knows me, especially on Facebook, knows my opinions towards spectators not respecting the track boundaries, and the risks they put the sport into when they don't respect it.
This sadly is the case proving what happens when you as spectator thinks you know better than the guard rail!
I really hope this sad case will go out as an example to all spectators to stay within the areas ment for spectating.
I'm thinking especially about those going to the Mulsanne straight at Le Mans!

[Babapapa]

No spectators were before the FIA-fence today, CTD.

So your opinion might be slightly offtopic. thanks.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Babapapa

No spectators were before the FIA-fence today, CTD.

I've been told (from someone at the track today ...) that the second fence at Flugplatz was the old catch fencing that for whatever reason was not removed when the new [taller] fence was installed, is that correct?

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Babapapa

No spectators were before the FIA-fence today, CTD.

So your opinion might be slightly offtopic. thanks.

Not the FIA-Fence, but there is a 2nd waist-high guardrail. Sadly it is obvious that people didn't respect this guard rail. Something I see at many tracks.

[PascaLM]

Originally Posted by Salamus

Terrible news

What's the point of the second fence if people can sit in front of it?

The zone between the catch fencing and the spectator fence or barrier is, normally and usually, forbidden to spectators.

[Babapapa]

As I posted before, this is a open spectator place @ the Flugplatz section.
The old fence wasn't removed after installing the FIA-fence.

https://twitter.com/Baba_papa/status/581823744454336512

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Babapapa

As I posted before, this is a open spectator place @ the Flugplatz section.
The old fence wasn't removed after installing the FIA-fence.

https://twitter.com/Baba_papa/status/581823744454336512

You are right. My point against the spectators is in this case wrong.
But the point still stands, the area should never be open for spectators, as we have seen several times that the FIA fence will give in a little if it is hit hard. Just see Duval's crash at Le Mans in 2014:

[Babapapa]

Yes. You're right.
The discussion about safety at the Nordschleife was postponed until the next heavy accident like today.

In the videos from that accident today you see

1) the famous flugplatz-section, where most of the cars leave the tarmac.
2) the car went straight on and hit the beginning of the tyre pile, to get more airborne
3) the fence were badly installed, get destroyed but didn't absorb the energy of the car.

Laptimes under 8:00 are much too quick for the Nordschleife. The alltime-laprecord from Stefan Bellof in his Porsche 956 on the Nordschleife from 1983 was 6:11. Formula 1 drove laptimes between 1:35 and 1:40 during the race on the Grand-Prix-circuit.
Jens Klingmann drove in the BMW Z4 7:59,045 in last year during a long-distance race on the VLN-series.

And the speed-difference are much higher than in Le Mans. Some cars drive laptimes much above 11 minutes.

Unlikely to say, Jann Mardenborough raced his first race on the Nordschleife today. He is rather quick, but got no line knowlegde exept from computer-games. ok, he made a training course in a Suzuki Swift this week, but got no race experience there.
Schulze Motorsport got years experience there and know 2013 to limp shortly not to loose the car.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7chVNbiSV7k
If you got no experience there, you had to drive more aggressive to get the laptimes of the leaders.

Hopefully i'm not missunterstood, Jann Mardenborough is not to blame for this accident, but i think, the rules at VLN are too easy to drive bigbangers too quickly there.

But money makes the world go round and workscars with experienced drivers only want to race quick. And the race together with the danger make a great show - much more like in Paul Ricard for example.

But for my point of view, the Nordschleife only fits for GT4 cars and slower. The 991 Cup cars made today also laptimes about 8:15 fastest. And Niklas Kentenich sent greetings after the surgery today at hospital. He got a high speed accident with his Cup-Porsche from Teichmann Racing @ Döttinger Höhe.
https://www.facebook.com/Niclas.Kent...70732929688873

[J Jay]

I know about the license that has been introduced to race at the Nurburgring, but would Jann have been omitted from that because of his international licences superceding them? As you say it's not his fault though, he was just a passenger.

I would agree with everything you've said, these GT3 car doing Group C times, and therefore speeds. It was too quick then and even with advances in safety because of the unique difficulties the Nordschleife poses it may be too quick even now.

[msd76]

Is it a case of the car's being too fast for the track, or the car's and the track being too fast for the driver? At the end of the day its too simply to think just one thing caused this accident, but my question is should a driver of Jann limited experience being driving a car like the GT-R for his first race in the first place?

[samzbob]

Originally Posted by msd76

Is it a case of the car's being too fast for the track, or the car's and the track being too fast for the driver? At the end of the day its too simply to think just one thing caused this accident, but my question is should a driver of Jann limited experience being driving a car like the GT-R for his first race in the first place?

But then again how many drivers have gone to the Nurburgring in the first place and had their first event in a GT3 car, I bet quite a few of them will tackle the Nordschlife competitively first time out in a car of similar spec to this.

You have to remember this guy has been more than capable in single seaters and other forms of racing, and i dont think this is a case of the driver was not up to the task.

I understand there is the complication of a few "lines" you have to take around the Nurburgring, but it seems to be a freaky set of circumstances that all lined up for this to happen, sometimes the sport gets away with it, this time it hasnt.

[TF110]

Incident happened there before with an SLS GT3, driver was no rookie either.

[terence]

Hence the sections name.It was a freak accident caused by the aero underboards and possibly a gust of wind.
Ruling for obtaining a Nordschleife Permit are clear in that one must provide proof of competing in at least one VLN before.No permit-no race.So if this guy has never competed in vln before, has there been some rule bending?

RIP to the spectator who had only attended for a good day out.Very sad outcome indeed.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by terence

Ruling for obtaining a Nordschleife Permit are clear in that one must provide proof of competing in at least one VLN before.No permit-no race.So if this guy has never competed in vln before, has there been some rule bending?

You need a Nordschleife permit to compete in VLN, but to get a Nordschleife permit you have to compete in a VLN race first? Doesn't make sense.

[jee]

Originally Posted by Babapapa

Laptimes under 8:00 are much too quick for the Nordschleife. The alltime-laprecord from Stefan Bellof in his Porsche 956 on the Nordschleife from 1983 was 6:11. Formula 1 drove laptimes between 1:35 and 1:40 during the race on the Grand-Prix-circuit.
Jens Klingmann drove in the BMW Z4 7:59,045 in last year during a long-distance race on the VLN-series.

And the speed-difference are much higher than in Le Mans. Some cars drive laptimes much above 11 minutes.

ADAC GT Masters used the Grand Prix layout as it is used in VLN, they had race lap times of 1:29. give or take 1 or 2 seconds for the connection of both layouts, they are not that far of Bellof's fastest race lap of 6:24.

I am sure if someone gives it a real try GT3 cars without slow traffic might be able to go sub 6 minutes.

[jee]

Originally Posted by terence

Ruling for obtaining a Nordschleife Permit are clear in that one must provide proof of competing in at least one VLN before.No permit-no race.So if this guy has never competed in vln before, has there been some rule bending?

Drivers with international B licence or higher can acquire the Nordschleife Permit by an additional training course.

[chunder]

GT3 cars might be in theory getting close to Group C times, but they do it in a different way with tyres, track knowledge and aero and the cars are far slower and easier to drive than twin turbo, wide, cars. I would imagine Bellof worked a million times harder than any of these guy to do his lap time!

Its the same at the Isle of Man TT, taht track has being resurfaced, bumps got rid of, areas opened up. So comparing what say a Hislop. Foarty or Dunlop did there is largely irrelevant due to changes in tyres, electronics etc.

The track is nowhere near as bumpy, the tarmac is better and safety where it can be is vastly improved

There have been tens of thousands of laps done there in all sorts of cars, this is just a freak incident bought on perhaps by a slightly unstable car given that a team suffered a similar issue there last year, and highly likely a gust of wind in just the wrong place.

If anything, due to the previous incident, perhaps questions might be quietly asked as to what was done when the GTR took off there last year. As the precedent has already been set with the Mercs at Le Mans that were clearly unstable yet told to race

[Creep89]

marceltencaat: DMSB confirms SP7, SP8, SP9, SP10 and SP-X are banned from racing at the Nürburgring until further notice.

So until "further notice" half of the cars are not eligible to race.

[airbusA346]

Knee-jerk reaction!!!!!!!!

[tux]

I dont know how much truth there really is in this rumour but it was said that after the 2013 24 hour race where this Nissan http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/nur...deo-1576177398 kept taking off in similar fashion that Nissan did alot of studies to try and stop it.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by airbusA346

Knee-jerk reaction!!!!!!!!

Not necessarily, it's until the investigation into the accident concludes (for now).

[Alex Langheck]

Originally Posted by airbusA346

Knee-jerk reaction!!!!!!!!

Motorsport authorities have to be seen to be proactive. Whether it's right is another matter. When it's a spectator killed, then organisers have to act.