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30 Mar 2015, 00:45 (Ref:3521679) | #3601 | ||
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Our best time before being Black Flagged was 8:12. Thoughts and Prayers with everyone. |
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30 Mar 2015, 00:54 (Ref:3521682) | #3602 | ||
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I promised myself I wouldn't get into this.......
So yes, what you say is true and I agree, but the car clipping the back on the catch fencing at the exact angle to vault the catch fencing and land in an area in which people happen to be seated is not the 'fault' of the car or the driver, and I'd argue that it's not something anyone could have reasonably predicted. If they had done, it would not be FIA grade 2 certified. Please let's stop trying to pin blame on anyone for an unfortunate set of circumstances which no one could reasonably have predicted occurring. Lessons have been learned (in the worst way possible), measures will be taken. |
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30 Mar 2015, 03:35 (Ref:3521718) | #3603 | ||
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* This and Manfred Winkelhock decades ago in an F2? |
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30 Mar 2015, 06:25 (Ref:3521742) | #3604 | ||
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Interesting video - maybe the organizers should consider moving the spectator area further away from the track at that point as it is clear that airborne incidents are not new and therefore cannot be unexpected at the that point.
Alternatively they could consider shaving off the top of the hump as the ACO did at LM after the Mercedes Airways incidents |
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30 Mar 2015, 08:03 (Ref:3521758) | #3605 | |||
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30 Mar 2015, 08:30 (Ref:3521764) | #3606 | |||
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A driver shouldn't go flat out full speed over Flugplatz on some of the first laps, in the same way you don't go flat out into a blind corner. |
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Hvil i Fred Allan. (Rest in Peace Allan) |
30 Mar 2015, 11:16 (Ref:3521820) | #3607 | ||
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not being able to go flat out on a race track for fear of the car becoming airborne is totally different to not going flat out round a corner because the tyres ultimately lose grip. it's a track issue if your car becomes a plane, not the driver's. |
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30 Mar 2015, 11:21 (Ref:3521821) | #3608 | |
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I'm 50-50 on whether call this knee-jerk or not - depends on how the situation evolves.
Even if they re-allow the GT classes shortly before the 24 hours, it's gonna leave massive number of unprepared cars and drivers to take the start. Oh and obviously the "qualifying race" is now pretty much killed off It would be pretty old school looking if the ban was still in effect for the 24 and it temporarily returned to the era of lower performance touring cars. Which class out of the ones not in ban would be among the fastest? |
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30 Mar 2015, 11:51 (Ref:3521826) | #3609 | ||
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The TT-RS' would walk it I think. Maybe v the Astra GTCs and those Black Falcon 991s over race distance.
Basically, the entire first plateau of starters is out, as far as I can tell. |
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30 Mar 2015, 12:01 (Ref:3521827) | #3610 | ||
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I would think they'd let the GT4s back in and perhaps ban the SP4T TT-RS as the bans right now just aren't very consistent.
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Ceterum censeo GTE-Am esse delendam. |
30 Mar 2015, 12:21 (Ref:3521835) | #3611 | ||
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I think the real issue here is that spectators were in a potential impact zone. I suspect they knew they shouldn't be there but wanted a good view of the cars getting air. (Think Rally). The answer is not to ban the cars, but to move the spectators back.
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30 Mar 2015, 13:21 (Ref:3521850) | #3612 | |
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For those of you who are not familair with the situation at the Flugplatz area.
The steep uphill where the lift off started and the following fast right hander are actually just before Flugplatz (which is basically nothing more than a right hand kink at the 4 km marker and named after an old air strip close by), see: The entire Ring nowadays has safety fencing at spectator areas which is situated on a 8-10 ft* high bank behind the guardrail which, in like many places, is preceded by a (double) row of tires. [*I haven't measured the height of the bank but believe me, it's not only high but also rather steep - I've done the trip from on top of the bank down to the guardrail - and back! - quite a few times and it's not a piece-o-cake!] This is the view from marshalspost (streckenpost) 80: And from MP 78/79: Another example (from MP 153): The combined height of bank + safety fence is close to 20 ft. - if not more. As said before: spectators are officially allowed directly behind the safety fence, the organizers even allow scaffolds and what's more constructed against it (Hohe Acht area): It took a fully airborne car to clear the safety fence - contributed largely by the reinforcing effect of the tire stacks when the car hit the beginning of it, which made the car somersault along and eventually over it. (also notice the subtle similarities with McNish's 2011 Le Mans crash as well which could have resulted in an even more devastating disaster: ) Hopefully this little insight provides a better understanding of things. |
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30 Mar 2015, 15:27 (Ref:3521886) | #3613 | |||
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It is the driver who detriments how fast he is going over the kink. It is the teams/manufactures who decides the level of downforce to keep the car down. How can it be the track which needs to change, and not the driver and car, who easily can do i? |
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Hvil i Fred Allan. (Rest in Peace Allan) |
30 Mar 2015, 16:16 (Ref:3521897) | #3614 | ||
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I think the easiest way to get the banned cars back in before the 24h is to make that section a permanent yellow, like the hairpin in Macau. In Macau it is to avoid overtaking, here they can force cars to slow down there.
After that there is time enough to think about track or car changes. |
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30 Mar 2015, 17:09 (Ref:3521912) | #3615 | |||
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As a Marshall I often see drivers, driving just as furiously through a Yellow zone as when it is green. The only thing slowing them down is if there is a slower car in front, where they can be penalised if they overtake. |
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Hvil i Fred Allan. (Rest in Peace Allan) |
30 Mar 2015, 17:27 (Ref:3521922) | #3616 | |
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30 Mar 2015, 17:56 (Ref:3521928) | #3617 | |||
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Off course it's not the best solution and against the spirit of racing, but i think it's the easiest thing to introduce in this short time. |
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30 Mar 2015, 18:06 (Ref:3521932) | #3618 | |||
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Perhaps the WEC solution of forced speeds in certain zones would be good? (electronic limiters controlled by GPS) |
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Hvil i Fred Allan. (Rest in Peace Allan) |
30 Mar 2015, 18:25 (Ref:3521934) | #3619 | |
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I would prefer a technical adjustment to the cars as temporary remedy, increased ride height and smaller front splitters to begin with and - as a more permanent solution - outlaw flat bottom floors.
Besides that the Ring (and other tracks as well!) have to look at the specific spot of the accident and similar areas where lift offs happen frequently and consider making changes - either to the track, run off areas (including modifying/replacing existing tire barriers) or spectator zones. |
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30 Mar 2015, 19:03 (Ref:3521945) | #3620 | ||
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I'm sure drivers get penalised during VLN/N24 if they don't slow to a certain speed through yellow flag zones (GPS is used to check speeds as far as I am aware).
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30 Mar 2015, 21:11 (Ref:3521980) | #3621 | |
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A very unfortunate accident. RIP to the spectator. And best wishes to Jann and and the injured spectators, hoping the the spectators get well soon and Jann gets over this.
I don't know what should be done. If no other changes will be made, surely spectators must not be allowed to be there anymore. But even if there were no spectators, that would've been a dangerous situation for the driver. I wouldn't like the track be changed, not even the hump lowered, changing Nordschleife would feel just wrong. Rather try to make the cars less prone to get airborne there. And if the track gets deemed too dangerous for GT3, then I rather see them going than the track changed. Of course, the track company may think in a different way and even make necessary changes if that's required to keep GT3. |
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30 Mar 2015, 21:17 (Ref:3521981) | #3622 | ||
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Very interesting and factual analysis here:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/m...b-9410503.html (in german) |
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30 Mar 2015, 21:26 (Ref:3521986) | #3623 | ||
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All the talk about changing the track or banning spectators from certain zones really doesn't touch the true problem: The inconvenient truth is that VLN and the 24hrs have been broken for a couple of years now.
There have been spades of races prematurely red-flagged over the last few seasons and the overall driving style has become just so much more aggressive for a variety of factors but ultimately as a result of the professionalization of the series. The VLN of old used to work precisely because it was largely a club championship and people raced responsibly and respectfully and probably not always at the limit of what their cars could do, but rather a bit more laid back in true old school endurance style. All that seems gone nowadays with the advent of what is often called the "four-(or twenty-four)-hour-sprint races". With so much prestige at stake and money invested, going anything short of flat-out doesn't do anymore, but at a track like the 'Ring, that comes with a price. Though we have seen similar developments at other GT3 races, most notably Bathurst and Spa. Either way, the flat-out approach seems to have also infected the lower classes (perhaps in part through the proliferation of one-make-cups to make up the numbers, where you can no longer really hope to out-engineer or outlast the competition), so there are many people that are going at it way too hard - and in some cases, due to the increasing costs (cf. professionalization again) these are people of the more-money-than-brains-persuasion. Painful as it may be, if VLN wants to survive, they need to turn back the clock on the professionalization and get back to a more club race kind of format. Last edited by Speed-King; 30 Mar 2015 at 21:48. |
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30 Mar 2015, 21:42 (Ref:3521993) | #3624 | ||
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I agree with Speed-King, the VLN went out of control. Too many pro lineups and huge difference between the first and the last, specially if we consider the Ring factor.
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30 Mar 2015, 22:07 (Ref:3521997) | #3625 | |||
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