LMP1 diesel performance adjustment

[chewymonster]

Originally Posted by Purist

Nice figures, but by the quoted numbers, the diesels have as much a 50% more torque. That is a HUGE difference, and is visually apparent on straights of any real length.

BTW, just to throw current thinking to the fan, Chernaudi said on another thread that it's been the 2006 Audi R10s running ALMS since Sebring. So, what do we REALLY know about Audi's potential pace, or the relative pace of the factory LMP2s?

Like I said, the same is true in real life, but real life acceleration difference is quite minor.

That might have something to do with it. At Sebring the Audi's were quite superior. But not at Utah. But then again, Audi could have had upgrades on the 2006 race cars. They raced both a 2006 and 2007 at Sebring and I don't remember much difference between the two.

In the end, pointless to change diesels as there is no factory competition to compare to. We have all seen what a factory P2 can do against a privateer P2 (well not so much this year as privateer P2s have gone extinct in ALMS) but I am sure there would be a 5-10 second difference if not more.

The fuel tank was reduced so everyone has the same amount of energy now. Of course only 1 team will be using gasoline engine technology to its maximum extent with regard to fuel consumption at Le Mans. Which further highlights the factory vs. privatter debate.

[Purist]

The torque difference is percentage is pretty clear in the road cars as well, but the difference is EXTREMELY visible on track when the Audis hit a straightaway.

It seems thing may have reached an impass. I mean, the ACO want data, but no factory as of yet is confident enough to jump in and provide it, and can you blame them? If Honda/Acura does move up, and gets trounced at Le Mans under the current rules, how intent do you think they will be to come back the following year, especially if there's no guarantee of rules adjustments? A Japanese luxury, performance brand gets blown away by diesels from a German sports-sedan manufacturer and a French automaker. How do you think that's going to look in PR circles? I'm sorry, but I'm NOT counting on Acura having the gonads to stick it out as much as Porsche has over the years, and even Porsche isn't willing to build a petrol LMP1 under the current rules.

Acura had better set the world on fire with their, hopefully, forthcoming LMP1, right out of the box, or I'm not confident that their program will last. And if Acura tries and is seen to fail, that is NOT going to entice anyone else to look at a petrol LMP1, even if some minor rules concessions are made.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by SebringMG

Porsche play the rules game very well - i expect them to get some concessions from the ACO by the end of the year.

I do think Porsche has been acting against the spirit of the rules from the very beginning by choosing to enter as a works team (with a Penske cover-up) in the LMP2 class which has always been seen as the entrant class for privateers. Now Honda has done the same and killed off all privateer efforts in ALMS.
I spoke with a Porsche representative during the 2007 Geneva Motorshow, and he clearly stated that after studying the rules Porsche found that a diesel would be the only way to win in LMP1. Knowing the attitude of Mr. Wiedeking about diesels ("have only become a force to reckon with due to the tax policies of most European countries") Porsche will never enter a diesel car. (But after the latest increase of interest in the VAG-Concern, it could also be possible to rebadge the Audi and call it a Porsche of course )

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Purist

Porsche's only theoretically suitable LMP1 engine currently is their 5.7-litre V10 (a flat 6 would cause issues with working in the undertray tunnels while still keeping the car's center of gravity low enough).

Duh. This engine was designed especially for Le Mans See http://www.mulsannescorner.com/porschelmp1.html

You seem to miss another candidate engine: the V8 turbo of the Porsche Cayenne. Or they could turbocharge the RS Spyder V8.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

You seem to miss another candidate engine: the V8 turbo of the Porsche Cayenne. Or they could turbocharge the RS Spyder V8.

Not according to Hartmut Kristen.

http://www.sportscarpros.com/not-tha...on/default.htm

[gwyllion]

Obviously it is not possible to directly mount 2 turbos on the high revving 3.4 V8. But they can reuse a lot of the design.

AER also planned to offer a NA version of the V8 turbo for LMP2.

[Purist]

I'm quite certain that it is FAR EASIER to retune after taking the turbos off than to re-engineer when trying to put turbos on. Basically, like the man said, you'd have to develop a new engine in the end. Not to mention, you'd make the turbo LMP1 engine of larger displacement to take advantage of the maximum allowed under the rules (4.0-litres).

BTW, the Cayenne's turbo V8 is 4.5-litres, which is too large for LMP regulations. So, once again, I'm very sure that a new engine would have to be created. The engine as it is is certainly too heavy anyway, and cylinder sleeves would be unnecessary weight, in case you were thinking of doing that to reduce the displacement.

[gwyllion]

The Audi V8 FSI turbo is based on their 4.2 V8, so reducing the displacement is not a big problem.

[chernaudi]

Sorry, but Audi's 3.6 TFSI V8 was a clean sheet of paper design. It's a overbore design, the 4.2 is an underbore. The 3.6 uses a flatplane crank, and the 4.2 uses a crossplane crank, among other considerations. It doesn't even have anything really in common with Audi's 3.6 DTM V8 aside from the flat crank and the fact that both are all aluminium V8s. And the production 3.6 V8 was a 4.2 with a smaller bore and stroke, but still used a crossplane crank like the 4.2.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by henk4

Now Honda has done the same and killed off all privateer efforts in ALMS.

Which privateer efforts were killed off by Honda/Porsche? What is the net effect in the class for privateers , in terms of numbers?

[sportscanyltics]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Which privateer efforts were killed off by Honda/Porsche? What is the net effect in the class for privateers , in terms of numbers?

Only one I can think of is Intersport moving to LMP1. Another example could be Velocity running in LMP1 instead of their original plans to run in LMP2, but do to the lack of firm information on the team's intentions with their B06/10 its hard to say.

[paul-collins]

Seriously?

So they're afraid of Porsche, and would rather run against Audi?

[ger80]

Come on, missing Teams like Kruse, PiR, Binnie, Barazi, Noel Del Bello, Embassy, ... in LMP2. But they missed in the time before RS Spyder too ...
Maybe really the short race time is the main ALMS problem looking for privateer teams in P2

[sportscanyltics]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

Seriously?

So they're afraid of Porsche, and would rather run against Audi?

I wouldn't say Intersport are afraid of anything; however, its certainly a numbers game. How many major-manufacturer entrants are there in LMP1? How many are there in LMP2?

Not only that, but LMP2 also features two manufacturers racing against eachother. Furthermore, I'm sure Intersport knew they were more apt to receive performance breaks from IMSA if they took the plunge and helped fill the void in LMP1.

All of that being said, I certainly agree that its not like we had a wealth of privateers jumping at the LMP2 class before Porsche and Acura entered the fold... interestingly enough, with CET Solaroli joining the ALMS soon we will actually have a pretty good collection of privateers in the class (CET, Dyson, B-K, vdS).

[sportscanyltics]

I also recently posted an article based on the Monza 1000km and regarding primarily the diesel/petrol equivalency issue:

http://sportscaranalytics.wordpress.com/

The closing thought at the end of the article is something that I've always kept in mind regarding the entire diesel situation. As admitted by the ACO, diesels were allowed larger fuel tanks than appropriate in 2006. If the ACO are willing to make mistakes with the diesel regulations and then correct them a season later, why not mandate a step reduction in the diesel restrictors or reduce turbo boost pressures?

[SebringMG]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

Seriously?

So they're afraid of Porsche, and would rather run against Audi?

Well yes!! Audi only fields 2 cars hence third on the podium is always up for grabs!! In P2 they would realistically always be battling for 4/5/or 6th versus what amounts to 5 works outfits and two good dyson cars.....do the maths

Besides they have sponsors to please so a third always beats even a fourth or fifth in P2 - is all about exposure

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by ger80

Come on, missing Teams like Kruse, PiR, Binnie, Barazi, Noel Del Bello, Embassy, ... in LMP2. But they missed in the time before RS Spyder too ...
Maybe really the short race time is the main ALMS problem looking for privateer teams in P2

I doubt that.

Fact is, in Europe the privateer has no other choice. In North America they do.

[Chewie-1990]

Aren't the majority of those teams (except Binnie) European-based? That could well contribute, the smaller teams can't really be constantly shipping cars/spares/whatever backwards and forwards from their base to the racetrack. Why bother when there's a perfectly good LM series closer to home

[ger80]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

I doubt that.

Fact is, in Europe the privateer has no other choice. In North America they do.

Think there are enough other series in europe too
Nobody is really focused on prototype sportscar racing if he drives GrandAm DP from my point of view. Maybe there is a good buisness case behind that.
At least 70% of the DP teams would drive something else than ALMS if GA is closed tomorrow ...

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Chewie-1990

Aren't the majority of those teams (except Binnie) European-based? That could well contribute, the smaller teams can't really be constantly shipping cars/spares/whatever backwards and forwards from their base to the racetrack. Why bother when there's a perfectly good LM series closer to home

Yep!

L.P.

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by ger80

At least 70% of the DP teams would drive something else than ALMS if GA is closed tomorrow ...

I think it's disingenious to suggest that they're not in it for the endurance sportscar racing, when the series has one of the historic enduros that's still running (Daytona 24).

Besides, if 30% of the field were all that were committed, that's still 6 or more cars.

The existence of GA with the purpose of providing a venue for sportsmen racers has forced the ALMS to focus on the commercial (professional) and manufacturer entrants. Those who berate them for doing so show a lack of understanding of the market in which the series exists.

[ger80]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

The existence of GA with the purpose of providing a venue for sportsmen racers has forced the ALMS to focus on the commercial (professional) and manufacturer entrants. Those who berate them for doing so show a lack of understanding of the market in which the series exists.

Agreed. Think they have to go the 1000km too (3drivers, cost reduction). On the other hand this is done in Japan too.

[chernaudi]

I don't know why anyone hasn't brought this up, but why don't privateers conisder the Panoz Elan/Ford 6L8 6 liter V8? Its cheaper than any of the Judd V10s or AER's 3.6 V8. It was good for about 650 hp under the pre '03 LMP900 regs, and made about 540+ ft/lbs of tourque-about 100 more than the Judd GV5, and about 20 or so more than the 3.6 TFSI V8 used in the Audi R8. And it's use would allow one to exploit an IMSA/ACO regulation-the fact that OHV pushrod engines get to run larger air restirctors. It uses alluminum block and heads, and, seeing as how it uses Ford's thin wall casting(made famous on their Windsor, and Cleveland small block engines(where the Elan came from) and the FE big block), it's very light for its size. Infact, its an all aluminum version of Ford's NASCAR engine, fitted with electonic fuel injection/engine management. What's the main disadvantage of this engine? Poor fuel mileage and size?

The reason why I bring this up is because this engine was very old fasioned compared to the R8's engine(the original version of this engine was designed by Ford in the '60s), but other than the larger air restictor, no special concessions were made for it. And it was the only engine that was able to beat Audi on a fairly consistant basis without major rules adjustments.

Granted, the R10 is a different animal, but the Elan engine, if it got better fuel mileage, would have a chance, especally as it would have at least a slight torque advantage over all the other gas engines.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by ger80

Agreed. Think they have to go the 1000km too (3drivers, cost reduction). On the other hand this is done in Japan too.

personally would like to see the longer endurance events in the alms. only reason i think it would never happen is tv coverage. nascar owns way too much time on speed and cbs/nbc can't even get the full 2:45 on air, and even live at that, never mind a longer race. now we will get to see how bad fox can handle racing with the next 3 f1 gp as well. plus with added distance to the events, anybody else think that a few euro teams may come over for selected events?

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I don't know why anyone hasn't brought this up, but why don't privateers conisder the Panoz Elan/Ford 6L8 6 liter V8? Its cheaper than any of the Judd V10s or AER's 3.6 V8. It was good for about 650 hp under the pre '03 LMP900 regs, and made about 540+ ft/lbs of tourque-about 100 more than the Judd GV5, and about 20 or so more than the 3.6 TFSI V8 used in the Audi R8. And it's use would allow one to exploit an IMSA/ACO regulation-the fact that OHV pushrod engines get to run larger air restirctors. It uses alluminum block and heads, and, seeing as how it uses Ford's thin wall casting(made famous on their Windsor, and Cleveland small block engines(where the Elan came from) and the FE big block), it's very light for its size. Infact, its an all aluminum version of Ford's NASCAR engine, fitted with electonic fuel injection/engine management. What's the main disadvantage of this engine? Poor fuel mileage and size?

The reason why I bring this up is because this engine was very old fasioned compared to the R8's engine(the original version of this engine was designed by Ford in the '60s), but other than the larger air restictor, no special concessions were made for it. And it was the only engine that was able to beat Audi on a fairly consistant basis without major rules adjustments.

Granted, the R10 is a different animal, but the Elan engine, if it got better fuel mileage, would have a chance, especally as it would have at least a slight torque advantage over all the other gas engines.

not a ford fan, but def could have a point there if the main drawback for a NA lmp1 engine is the torque loss to the diesels. only prob would be how much bodywork modification would be needed on a creation or zyteck to make the ohv engine fit?