ALMS/Grand Am Fusion 2014

[Maelochs]

I’d say GA Can make money without any ALMS content now that it has a monopoly.

There are more sponsor dollars available now. Some teams will cross over, and some fans too. It won’t have to be a lot (GA never had fans before—it will be a new experience for them.) And GA will have the best sports car racing in North America—by default.

Considering that by 2014 all the P1 teams would have had to buy new cars and probably all the GTE teams, it would make no sense to include either class. If the teams need to buy new equipment anyway, why not force them to buy GA-spec equipment?

GA is basically slow GT3, and GT3 is cheaper for the factories and also wildly popular. Why would GA choose a more expensive class? Also, BMW would have been out of luck because it’s Z4 (they car they want to race) cannot use its V8 engine in GTE (which means it could never compete.) In GA the BMW is absolutely welcome. Add in Lamborghini, Mercedes, Porsche, Ferrari, AND all the American cars, and GA GT looks (on paper) like great GT racing.

And maybe some ALMS teams, faced with a choice of WEC (very expensive) or GA (slow) will choose slow, so they can stay in business.

The IRL/ChampCar thing only goes so far. IRL adopted road courses because the original IRL vision of All-American cars and drivers on Ovals Only was hideously flawed. The series Needed to include road courses to survive.

GA’s basic vision is ugly but not nonviable—NASCAR proves that (heck IndyCar is spec cars and spec tires with basically spec engines nowadays.)

I agree, ALMS fans will not watch DPs at Petit or Sebring—those will likely become three-hour races if they are used at all. I guarantee you Racing fans will turn out for Sebring. Fans turned out for Sebring in ’72 or ’73 even when there was no race. I bet some ALMS fans will tune in to watch GA on TV though, just because ti will be all there is most weekends.

Also: there is no way right now for WEC to run at Daytona—the cars are too fast. And WEC doesn’t even Want to ruin at Sebring—the track is too rough. WEC wants to do six hours at CotA. Sebring is really important to traditional U.S. road-racing fans—and doesn’t mean squat to anyone else.

I was amused to hear the Peugeot drivers talk about winning Sebring in 2010. They totally didn’t take the race seriously—it was just a warm-up for Le Mans. European tracks matter to Europeans—Sebring is a dirty, flat, ugly bug-infested field full of raving drunks to the Euros.

In any case, the NASACR equation doesn’t involve “race fans.” NASCAR makes its money by making its product appealing to semi-fans and non-fans who will occasionally watch a race, and then enjoy it just enough to watch another.

The NASCAR way also involves convincing non-fans and semi-fans that what they are seeing has significance far beyond what they see. Every race is made epic, and every driver a hero—and Americans love that stuff.

NASCAR believes that it can Create GA fans if it wants to. ALMS fans—meh. Enough will come over out of desperation and screw the rest. Now that NASCAm is the only game in town it can’t help but succeed—or NASCAm will simply run it at a loss to keep anyone else from starting a series.

How’s that AMA racing going?

[gregtummer]

I disagree about WEC not wanting to run at Sebring. Sebring: Half as long (as Le Mans), twice as hard.

The teams want to run at Sebring, because Sebring will beat the crap out of your car and break parts that you never thought could break. It is a great shakedown for finding the weaknesses in your car before Le Mans.

And the reason Peugeot didn't take the 2010 12 Hours of Sebring seriously is because Audi wasn't there. Peugeot protested that Audi's car was illegal and ACO agreed. But Audi ran their R15+ there the next day for their own 12 hour test. Audi later admitted that it would have been better to be in the race than just practice by yourself, because you get the different tire build-up, and can see how the car handles in traffic.

[Articus]

I don't actually see a need to race at Sebring when as you said one can just test by themselves the day after the race. They have 2 WEC rounds prior to Le Mans to test the car in traffic...And then have a private or open test at Sebring for 24 hours to test reliablility. Sebring is a historic race but judging by Audi not running it in 2012 its not crucial to be in the race.

[gregtummer]

You mean 2010 and not 2012?

[trickyd]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Absolutely true. The IRL/CART-ChampCar strategy--use endless dollars to deny the competition what it needs, even if it has a better product.

Question now is can GA become a money-maker now that it has the entire playing field to itself? Can it get more manufacturer support now that there is no other North American series for manufacturers to invest in? Can NASCAm create a product which Will make money in this environment, given free rein?

Having a monopoly is usually a great boost for business.

This is getting more depressing than a voluntary euthanasia thread. Is this all it really comes down to, making money? Then why bother at all then, why bother having a racing series, why race cars? Why don't they sell burgers or pancakes, they are pretty popular in America, you couldn't fail. If all everyone is interested in is products, bottom lines, advertising and brands then there really is no point. Why not get a load of model BMW's, Chevrolet's and Toyota's, whack a load of sponsors on them, park them in Central Park and go home.

[trickyd]

Originally Posted by Holt

They will do whatever is the most profitable. If ignoring ACO regulations means cheaper cars and more money, they'll do that. If going along with ACO regulations even if just for GT cars means more fan interest from sportscar purists and those who want to see more innovation which in turn means more money they'll go with that.

No matter how evil people may say the France family is the point is money talks. If eradicating and ignoring all competition means more money, they'll do that. If keeping some ties with the ACO and Le Mans means more money, they'll do that instead.

This is what I don't get though, they are already multi millionaires, if not billionaires, why ruin a sport just to make more money they don't need. Like that little goblin Glazer, why buy Man Utd, saddle them with a shat load of debt and bleed them dry when you are already rich enough to spend the rest of your days keeping warm burning stacks of money? I don't understand. Why do the NASCAR lot need total domination of road racing, if all they are going to do is kill it and count the coin? Its a bizarre set up you lot have over there.

[Maelochs]

You're just jealous because you don't live in a country with expensive crappy healthcare.

[gregtummer]

In this case, I don't think its about money. Its about control.

I don't see Grand Am being profitable. I don't even see how the Truck series can be profitable.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

You're just jealous because you don't live in a country with expensive very, very good healthcare.

Fixed based on my bias towards the exceptional work my sister and other family members do in the field.

Chris

[skycafe]

[QUOTE=Maelochs;3130130]
—Sebring is a dirty, flat, ugly bug-infested field full of raving drunks to the Euros.

/QUOTE]

You mean the race that draws probably the second highest spectator count behind LeMans, has more media attention then WEC Silverstone or any other WEC round. Certainly more history and tradition then any other WEC round besides LeMans.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

ENOUGH

Put your handbag away....NOW!!!!

I don't follow exactly what you mean, but I'm not here for arguing with anyone.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by TF110

I don't follow exactly what you mean, but I'm not here for arguing with anyone.

I think Bentley was hinting that it was more a "girls fight" than an factual discussion, and therefor had no place on this forum.

[Maelochs]

Jonerz---Nothing against your family members, but pretty much the rest of the world and half of America seems to have figured out that America’s health care system is not all that good for a lot of Americans.

I have nothing but respect for health-care workers, and I agree with part of your revision—for people with a LOT of money, the health care is second to none. For everyone else, we are about 37th.

SkyCafe: Yes, I am talking about the 12 Hours of Sebring, my favorite race, the best racing experience I have ever had every time I have gone.

The simple fact that it will not be on the 2013 WEC calendar pretty much sums up what the Euros think about it.

As I said, among race fans, it is iconic. Just as I am sure there are iconic swimming and fencing and dressage event of which I know nothing. Heck, I know that I don’t know anything about Air Shows, which I would probably really enjoy. But none of those get much general news coverage either.

[TF110]

All I said is I'm not arguing with anyone, it's not a 'fight', I wasn't intending on that at least. It was just me saying that GTE's are slightly slower (right now) than DP. But it doesn't matter. All that could change in either which way. Hopefully we find out more details in the next couple of days.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Jonerz---Nothing against your family members, but pretty much the rest of the world and half of America seems to have figured out that America’s health care system is not all that good for a lot of Americans.

I have nothing but respect for health-care workers, and I agree with part of your revision—for people with a LOT of money, the health care is second to none. For everyone else, we are about 37th.

I'm not making any sort of political or economic statement, I was simply defending the quality and quantity of work done by our exceptional health care workers. That's it, just "crappy" hit close to home is all.

Chris

[Paradise City]

I'm very nervous about the future. I watch a bit of Grand Am but don't like DP. I don't like the France influence. I hope the Sebring 12 survives.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I'm very nervous about the future. I watch a bit of Grand Am but don't like DP. I don't like the France influence. I hope the Sebring 12 survives.

The France influence used to be a good thing, and I get the impression that Jim France is a keen sports car fan. Apparently he attends Sebring annually and even follows the ALMS as closely as a man with two/(three?) jobs can.

Everyone should keep in mind: we know NONE of the details yet. Rumors are rumors. Some of the rumors, particularly the negative ones are being perpetuated by people who are naturally weary of NASCAR (which is a large proportion of this site, myself included).

Sebring isn't owned by Don Panoz, he owns the lease to Sebring International Raceway. I'm pretty sure the city wouldn't let a new lease-owner raise the circuit and build houses (don't know how that rumor started, it is infinitely more applicable to Road Atlanta).

Sebring, regardless of Jim France doubting 180 000-large crowds (even doubting 150k) is a huge crowd with a tremendous history. Recall that Sebring was featured on the NASCAR-backed IMSA schedule from 1972 through IMSA's first sale. That time saw the maturation of the legendary GT Championship and the out-of-this-world GTP era.

The rumor that Grand-Am exists only to kill off the ALMS is just a rumor. Keep in mind the USRRC (the precursor to Gramd-Am) was the product of men like Jim France, Skip Barber, Roger Penske, Rob Dyson and Don Panoz in reaction to the horrendous reign of Andy Evans at IMSA.

The Don walked out on the USRRC (at Daytona 1998, but his Esperantes remained in the series I believe to its conclusion) because of an alleged imbalance between the GT1-based machines and the Can-Am (WSC) cars, to (eventually) create the American Le Mans Series and got Andy Evans' PSCR (IMSA) to sanction his Petit Le Mans. It was minor disagreements over rules structure and a tiny bit of ego that caused the now 14 year schism in American racing.

USRRC/Grand-Am saw the bright-burning, but quickly fading FIA GT1 cars (that by association at La Sarthe were making WSC/Can-Am/SRP cars more expensive) as a bad example to follow. Daytona Prototypes came five years into USRRC/Grand-AM's life to execute their desire to keep the rules consistent and the costs reasonable for pro racing teams that make their money in sports car racing.

Let's wait for the details and stop the muck-throwing.

Chris

[johncho]

this came out last week, didnt understand why until now. this will eliminate several types of old cars - crawford, proto auto come to mind- from being dusted off. Also gen 1/2 DP body styles of the current chassis choices (dallara, riley) are already excluded for 2013.

http://www.grand-am.com/Portals/0/Im...tin_201218.pdf

[HJJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7eE7...ature=youtu.be

Dagys and Parente after the second break. Interesting stuff.

[HJJ]

JD's chat. Missed it, was going to grill out on this Holiday, then it started to rain.

Some familiar names listed. Kinda glad I don't know Andy666Evans.

http://www.speedtv.com/current-chat/...ode=bfbdaace20

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by HJJ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7eE7...ature=youtu.be

Dagys and Parente after the second break. Interesting stuff.

Originally Posted by HJJ

JD's chat. Missed it, was going to grill out on this Holiday, then it started to rain.

Some familiar names listed. Kinda glad I don't know Andy666Evans.

http://www.speedtv.com/current-chat/...ode=bfbdaace20

Watch Drive, and read the chat log if you haven't been reading through this entire thread. They each cuts through a lot of the bogus talk that has been going on, although there is a fair amount of sniping and bogus talk on the Speed chat, but JD lays down the law (and implores people to speak reasonably, or simply ignores the crazies) pretty well.

Chris

[rblanshard]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I'm very nervous about the future. I watch a bit of Grand Am but don't like DP. I don't like the France influence. I hope the Sebring 12 survives.

I have to agree on most parts. I can't say I have an opinion on the France influence. I'm not ready to believe the France family believes they have that much of a self-centered view of themselves that they would force what they think is right without the influence/input of the international community.

They have deep pockets, but I hope they don't adhere to the golden rule: he with the gold, makes all the rules. If there are lines of communication between the France family and the ACO/FIA, I hope there is talk between the 2-3 of them.

[FstrthnU]

http://www.motorsport.com/alms/news/...r-class-clash/
VERY optimistic (?) prediction for 2014 class structures...

Prototype: LMP1 + LMP2 + American DTM?
Prototype Challenge: LMPC + DP
GT: GTE (no Pro or Am distinction)
GT3/GT Junior/???: GT3 (completely phasing out Grand-Am GT in favor of full GT3)

the author cites GT300 in Super GT as a good example of BOP, can people here verify/counter that statement?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

Why don't you go suck on the exhaust pipe of your Camaro, feeling proud of your grade 4 education...? As one of the 8 fans Grand Am has you'll not understand what a "real" prototype is anyway.

Crapwagon still sucks.
...and as far as I'm concerned, a Prototype Sports car, is one you cannot buy on the street.

So as simplistic as a DP is, it still counts as a "real" prototype.

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by Matt

Crapwagon still sucks.
...and as far as I'm concerned, a Prototype Sports car, is one you cannot buy on the street.

So as simplistic as a DP is, it still counts as a "real" prototype.

So is a (non)Stock Car a prototype?