2011 Bathurst 12 Hour

[Sheep Stations]

Originally Posted by Wood-duck

Ageing WRX's ??? Elderly BMW's ?? Ancient Integras ??

Here is a question for you sheep. How old is a 996 Cup car ?

My guess is what ? 2002, 2003 ??? 2004 latest ??

The Ageing, Elderly and Ancient cars you mention... are actually younger than some of the GT3 / Challenge cars entered this year !!

And a 997 would be what ? 2006/7 ? Again putting them around same vintage as the so-called fossils you have pointed out.

IIRC the Ferraris are around an 06/07 vintage as well ?

Hhhmmmmmmmm.....

$180k - yes, I believe that is the price for a turn-key TMR prepared EVO 10. I agree - ridiculous. You can buy one from a dealer for $50k and build it yourself. That is the beauty of this type of racing.

If you have a look around, you will see one of those "Ageing" WRX's for sale at a very reasonable $40k, that same car ran in the top 5 for most of the afternoon at the 12 hour last year with ok drivers (but no means superstars as the EVO's had driving them)... so you dont need a $180k car to be competitive.

Now - your still beating heart. Perhaps you are right, for mine the best 'spectacle' at the 12 hour meet last year was the Porsche "drivers" challenge races. Far and away the funniest thing I have seen since Eddie Murphy's "Delirious". It had half the pit lane doubled over in stitches it was that comical. The only problem is - it would have been funny if these blokes were not half serious...

No one in the GT camp is hanging their hat on the whole 'means more to the buying public' argument that has been touted with repetition by the prod car commentators so I can't buy any further into the age thing. Mean's nothing to me, a 996 cutting 2.14 or better and taking it to 997's will still be far more entertaining than anything I've seen in the past 2 years. Oh, and many of the 997's are 2009's.

Seeing as though it's turning personal... Fair cop on the one competitor who looked like a goose after contact and a flat tyre turn one and kept full throttle as he did several loops. He had to wear a tutu all weekend at our next round.

But from my recollection, other than the two previous series winners making hard contact, there were 2 actualrace laps in race 1 in torrential rain until it was red flagged for being too dangerous to continue and race 2 was cancelled altogether as there were rivers runing off the walls at places like the cutting.

If you draw your conclusions on driver standards from that little snapshot, hard to take anything else seriously.

[Spiller]

Crash - I was making a point that production cars as a race vehicle can only go as fast as they can be made to go, so theoretically, the best road car = the best race car.

I'm well aware that reliability is key in motorsport, it's what I base my entire preparation around. However people will not build a race car purely to race once a year in a 12 hour event, they will build it becuase it is a fast car. Getting it to stay together is up to the individual or team running the car. Hence why I reference lap times because strategy etc. are important at the 12 hour but for choosing your weapon, you are not going to go - "hey a VE HSV wagon got third last year, if I build one, I might get third" now are you?

Simple question - if you were to build a production car today, what would you build? My answer is none, because a new EVO is due in 2013 (Probably late 2012). Then when that comes out, a new STI is probably a year away, etc. etc.

Still wold like to know how many EVO's would have attended this year had the GT's not joined in.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by bluesport

.......a "dummy spit" from the organisers maybe?

Not really, I think the ability to break even on the even is the biggest concern for the organiser - hence the tweaking of the event.

I dont understand the production car vs GT arguments here.

Both categories, Production and GT are entertaining and have value in their own right so I am not sure the need to slag off against either category.

The event has evolved for 2011 and could evolve again for 2012 - who knows, however what I think is important is we support the event whether that be combined GT & Production or just Production.

As Australian motorsport needs this event to stick around as there is not much else to offer these days.

[Reload]

Coming from someone who doesn't have as much knowledge on the subject as many on here, but just going by what i have read and heard, it appears that the "Proddy" drivers/owners are the ones having the "take my bat and ball" dummy spit.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Reload

Coming from someone who doesn't have as much knowledge on the subject as many on here, but just going by what i have read and heard, it appears that the "Proddy" drivers/owners are the ones having the "take my bat and ball" dummy spit.

Not if it's a case of "you'll have GT or nothing at all".........so if the GT 12hr fails they won't go back to proddies.

[E.B]

How many Porsche's are we going to see? Over a third of the field..... Personally I would not bother to leave my driveway to watch Porsches race. I find them totally boring. Moreso than the Evo's around Bathurst tbh. That goes for in particular Porsche Cup / Supercup of any type. There are just too many of them, and all the configurations of RSR and GT this and that, 99 whatever number on the end is confusing to me for something so dull and overrated to watch. Their presence will and has already put the 12 hr into the 'I'll follow some of it if I have nothing else to do' category, a different story to last year where I followed (and had planned my day around it) the race online from go to wo, .

Nothing personally against Porsche as a brand.... the 908 /917 onwards era of Porsche racing was sensational. But not the nonsense they race now. (However the 918 concept is quite appealing.) And to think over 1/3 of the entries (10/28) at the 12 hour are Porsches is a major negative and disappointment for me personally.

But the Audi R8, Ford GT, Lambo, Mosler etc are another kettle of fish altogether. At least they are different to look at and visually exciting.

The concept of GTs on the mountain, especially cars we rarely get to see such as the Audis, is fine and I will watch them.......

I fear for the Prod category future at Bathurst and share their sorrow at having been somewhat short shifted over this whole B12hr issue. Its a pity that they cant actually run the Proddies as a unique event within the 12 hour, so they can have their own outright winner. I guess with the reduced numbers we have now make it neither a decent GT lineup in terms of their own race within a race, whilst their presence has clearly kept away many of the quicker prodsters thus affecting the quality and credibility of their race as well.

[GTRMagic]

In reality this is a combined GT3 & Production car race. Evos and the like could have entered as class competitors but chose not to because they wouldnt be the headline act. You can kinda see their point.

There are 9 outright cars in the field, maybe 5 of those is a shot at the win. Not more not less that past years within production car regulations.

The buy price on an Audi R8 is what, $500k? A full house TMR Evo is what, $180k as descrived earlier. It is a HUGE gulf in cost between one and the other.

Bringing the likes of Mr Lowndes into the field will help the mainstream interest in the event, and in the racing, and in the car he sits his posterior in.

You have to look at the pilots in previous years. With no disrespect to previous winners and place getters, they are (mostly) not household names, certainly not those blokes or blokettes with a following that will help the B12 into the mainstream.

Maybe Mr Lowndes will help this. If not, the B12 becomes the home of a long club race on the best track in the land. Is that commercially sustainable?

Meantime, maybe we should stick to who we think can win the thing, as opposed to lamenting the loss of the production cars from the field. The field is set, 28 cars. That's all she wrote!

[Sheep Stations]

Nothing personally against Porsche as a brand.... the 908 /917 onwards era of Porsche racing was sensational. But not the nonsense they race now. (However the 918 concept is quite appealing.) And to think over 1/3 of the entries (10/28) at the 12 hour are Porsches is a major negative and disappointment for me personally.

I don't know why I'm biting, I really should know better...

But c'mon!...save the 'back in my day' stuff for your grandkids. A rant about 917's (of which I'm very fond of myself) has 'what' to do with the B12HR? I'm sure everyone associated with the Porsche brand would be very apologetic for producing the prefered and reliable GT3 weapon of choice( for most), is factory built and supported, punches way above it's engine capacity in every single one of the '99' model variants and wins more than its fair share of races.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and Porsches look just gorgeous in parc ferme with a winners laurel on the windscreen.

Whining about too many Porsches in a race rather than the lack of appearance of other marques is a concept just too odd for me to fathom.

[ff s conscience]

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

Very crudely...at 120k (and I am refering to my prefered vehicles) it includes gearbox/engine refresh plus usual consumables like clutch/wheel bearings etc prior to the event and after 24h you will need to do it all again, not so in general after 12hours. Hence double it.

If we're talking about one of your rigs then your optimism is refreshing.

MY optimism!

YOU'RE the one that thinks a Porsche that had just finished a 12hr (plus the hours of prac and qual) at Bathurst would be worth ANYTHING......

it would be saleproof, unless refreshed... therefore, it would need very similar prep (maybe 75 to 90% of ) as a 24hr race.

[B24]

Originally Posted by ff s conscience

No, they're not.

Just toys. One may race after a while, but not anytime this year I wouldn't think.

Thanks Phil

[Wood-duck]

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

No one in the GT camp is hanging their hat on the whole 'means more to the buying public' argument that has been touted with repetition by the prod car commentators so I can't buy any further into the age thing.

You were the one that brought up the age of the cars as a black mark against production cars. I can see the Ageing/Elderly/Ancient jibe was to make your point, and yes I can see that point. I was simply making comparision to what GT vehicles have entered for this year. Sorry if it makes your argument on this topic look redundant.

Just as a matter of interest, what exactly are the GT camp hanging their hat on ?

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

If you draw your conclusions on driver standards from that little snapshot, hard to take anything else seriously.

I was only referring to the 12 hour support races, as it was a part of the 12 hour meet. I havent watched any other Porsche Drivers Challenge events, as frankly I dont see any real competitive merit in a Gentleman racer's playground. I see it as a fun series for people to enjoy their cars, and good on them. It is just not my type of racing. This is my personal view, please dont take it as an insult. Each to their own.

[Wood-duck]

Originally Posted by Spiller

On outright standings maybe... Lap times tell a different story. Just because people cant get their cars to stay together or not catch fire, doesn't mean it's not the case. The BMW is up there, the Mustang was an invite car. The HSV with gun drivers was nearly 4 seconds off the pace. So the choice of 3 cars maybe (STI 2 seconds off)? And how long until there is another EVO or STI variant, or BMW bring out a 4l 3 series?

I obviously cannot get the lap time for the EVO 9 that was excluded - but it isn't there because the times dont count.

02:31.0 EVO X Salmon/White/Tulloch
02:31.3 EVO X Hill/Bana/Leahey
02:31.4 EVO X Pearson/Glenney/Bargs
02:31.5 BMW 335 Holt/Morris/Bowe
02:31.6 EVO X Crompton/Seton/King
02:32.1 EVO X Owen/Koundouris/Koundouris
02:32.5 EVO X Crimp/Luff/Kostera
02:33.4 STI Hunter/Herridge/Mawer
02:33.9 Mustang Bright/Simonsen/Zukanovic
02:34.8 R8 Wagon Pretty/Jone/McConville
02:35.7 WRX Castle/Wood/Wimmer
02:36.0 F6 Douglas/Moffat/Hislop
02:36.7 EVO X Conroy/Robson/Brame
02:36.9 EVO VII Pollicina/O'Dowd/Middleton
02:37.4 VE Ute Johson/Callaghan/Letcher
02:37.8 VE SS Walden/Walden/Auld
02:38.8 VY HSV Alford/Nesbitt/Cramp/Heward
02:39.3 VY HSV Wilson/Fabris/Emery
02:39.6 XR8 Ute Dunn/Fisher/Elsegood
02:39.9 Mazda 3 Camilleri/Nicholas
02:40.6 EVO 9 Quinn/Quinn/Twigg

Spiller,

I see your point - however one thing worth mentioning (that effects lap times) is that the 12 hour is NOT a control tyre race.. meaning that different teams have different access/availability of tyre brands and compounds.

This does pollute the lap times somewhat - for example the Pro-Duct EVO's had access to soft tyres, whereas some other teams chose a durable tyre and stuck with it.

You will note the 2:36.7 recorded by the Conroy/Robson/Brame EVO. I understand that this was a TMR prepared EVO.. theoretically the same as the example that set the fastest lap of the race.. so just because you have the toy, doesnt guarantee you a result.

The EVO X did have a sizeable advantage with the Turbo boost they where allowed to run, which the rules has now corrected which should have seen them come back to the "pack" somewhat. Therefore it should now be theoretically more compareable with the BMW, R8 Sportwagon, WRX, F6 etc...

Let's also not take anything away from the TMR organisation proper. It is a well run, experienced, factory supported operation. Give it a car like the EVO, and naturally these cars will flourish. Compare that with the BMW, WRX's which are all private entry with little to no factory support. It is also a question of resources for the individual teams. Bob Pearson always makes sure his team is well prepared and resourced as well..

[porsche91722]

After reading the last three pages of posts (been tied up with the flood dramas up here) it just seems to me that the event has to go forward with the GT's. Who knows, it may fail, but I think we have to grow up and get out of this production car mentality. I really don't think that the newer motorsport fans now and in the future could really give a toss about seeing a bunch of nobodies racing around the greatest track in Australia for 12 hours. Hopefully, with Audi coming out this year, it will be the start of something bigger. I am making a gigantic leap of faith here, but with the ILMC kicking off this year, and most of the races being in Europe and the U.S. it could be a precursor for an Aus round in the future. On the subject of LMP's not being able to race at Bathurst, P.I. could be an option there.

[alfacors]

Originally Posted by Wood-duck

You will note the 2:36.7 recorded by the Conroy/Robson/Brame EVO. I understand that this was a TMR prepared EVO.. theoretically the same as the example that set the fastest lap of the race.. so just because you have the toy, doesnt guarantee you a result.

The car may have been bought from TMR, but I am pretty sure that the Conroy Motorsport team prep their own cars.

[Spiller]

Thanks for the reponse wood-duck. Personally, I'm pretty disappointed that more of the production cars wont be there. Any time there is an enduro at Bathurst and entry numbers aren't limited (Unlike in other Endurance races up there), to me the more the better.

I love watching the LMS series with LMP1 through to GT2 on track, with the different classes bringing their own thing to the track, whilst also creating a need for the drivers to be mindful and thoughtful to each other on the circuit due to the difference in capability of the cars. They are some of the best spectacles of racing IMO, and hopefully next year the event can go ahead with more support from both GT and Proddies. I'm aware that regs may need to be changed to help achieve that(in both classes).

Either way, I'll be checking in online and watching eagerly this year. Keen to see how the different cars go, if the late model GT's can match the older cars with the extra stops etc.

[Oldtony]

Looking forward to a great race. A Bathurst enduro is always worth watching no matter what is running, and the events there have been the image that has grown Motor Racing in Australia from a fringe interest to mainstream sports?entertainment.
It's a pity that this forum has descended to Prodcar supporters slagging off GT supporters and vice versa. The problem is, and has been since the announcement, that the organisers appear to have been concentrating on the new toys with no regard for what they had in the past. The presence of the GTs obviously means that the outright spotlight, and with it the publicity and sponsorship opportunities have been lost to Prodcar entrants. There doesn't appear to have been any consideration of that fact by the organisers in terms of fees, regulation changes or any other part of the event profile.
The tyre differential is the most obvious point, with it's effect on speed differential and safety.
As an event of public interest it has been saved by the Audi entry, and for the continuation of the 12hr it is to be hoped that overseas entrys of that standard can be attracted in future. One thing is certain, if those entries don't come in the future, the event has no future. Big punt, I hope it comes off.
The worry is that some blokes who formerly financed race cars were out at the Magic Millions Sales last weekend.

[Just Do It!]

Such as?

[Sheep Stations]

Old Tony, agree about the degeneration of the post but have to pull you up about the organisers ditching prods for the new toys...nothing could be further from the truth.

The minute that GT participation was even touted, without consultation or objectivity, toys were chucked out of the cot by a few, and then peer pressure, scuttlebutt and (for once) a 'united front' meant that the prod numbers for 2011 would be carved up.

As for tyres/speed differentiation, Dubai 24hr just run and a very creditable 27th out of 80 from the Racer Industries Astra...running against GT3's and GT2's on a similar size circuit. And Ryan McLeod and his team had a blast. A rub from one car in the middle of the night was the only contact.

Seems to work everywhere else.

[Crash Test]

Hrmm.... Dubai and Bathurst might be similar lengths, but Dubai isn't narrow and concrete lined like Bathurst. IIRC there were numerous incidents in the 2003 24hr with the disparity in car speed.

[Oldtony]

But then Crash test Dubai was running 84 starters against possibly 27 for the B12
The other thing is the very different re fueling and pit proceedures at Dubai. A GolfTdi finished way ahead of a lot of faster cars simply becaus it spent considerably less time refueling than anything else.
Don't know if a Bathurst crowd would understand the cars driving round the back of the pits to the bowsers.
SS I agree that a lot of the prodcar runners probably gave up on the event too easily, but I think the problem for many of them is that with their change in status they just couldn't see where the sponsors and the budget were coming from, and as far as I am aware they were not offered any incentives or compensation by the organisers to justify their loss in potential income.
A very significant prize, and status, for an "index of performance" might have worked.

[Oldtony]

OOps!! Think I goofed.
Apparently these days they do use dry break refueling on pit lane.

[Belly13]

Any entry lists for the support classes?

[pplater]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

OOps!! Think I goofed.
Apparently these days they do use dry break refueling on pit lane.

No, no, they still use bowsers. Here's a Speedhunters pic of the 2011 race:



And one of the winning BMW Z4:

[Wood-duck]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

SS I agree that a lot of the prodcar runners probably gave up on the event too easily, but I think the problem for many of them is that with their change in status they just couldn't see where the sponsors and the budget were coming from, and as far as I am aware they were not offered any incentives or compensation by the organisers to justify their loss in potential income.
A very significant prize, and status, for an "index of performance" might have worked.

Index of performance. I like it
Well done Old Tony, there is an ideas man....

your comments on sponsor and budget etc are also accurate. The trouble I think some people had grasping was the speed difference, and with an EVO - running 2:35's (race pace) against a front running GT3 (probably running 2:15 race pace) you have a 20 second per lap difference or maybe more.

Over a circuit that takes a GT3 car around 135-140 seconds to complete, that means that the EVO would be blown off the road every 8-9 laps. Hardly a fun afternoon...and the guys in the slower production cars would be even less laps to overtake again and again...

The speed differential at places like McPhillamy would be horrendous.

The GT3 guys should be happy there are less production cars to get in their way.

The debate on this topic has been robust. I have my views, other people have theirs. I think the insults hurled at the production car supporters, the cars and the previous events has been unjust. If it wasnt for the production car fraternity, their would have been no 12 hour race to "improve".

My last word on the changeover - I feel sorry for the organiser. He is a good bloke and cant help but feel he has been sold a pup. At least in year 1... If it wasnt for the Audi Joest Entries, the GT3 grid would be thin.

I will still watch the race on stream.... as it is still the 12 hour. Just not as we have known it. Instead of going round in circles shooting down factless arguments, will move on to the race discussion as it is getting close.

For mine, I see the Quinns and Bairdo as the line honours favourites at the moment.

[B24]

Just on the speed difference debate. This has been covered quite a few times over the years with the same result. Are other people aware of this?
Previously I raised the example of the Wakefield Park 300 and will raise it again. The speed difference is up to 20seconds a lap over a 2.2km track. This year it rained heavily throughout the race, there were infact first timers in the race as well as seasoned drivers. How many accidents? Zero to my knowledge.
Over the last 4 years. I can confidently say less than two. Im sure you will find similar results at the Qld 500 held by the Porsche Club.
So it does work hear right in our own back yard. Can the same happen at B12.
My opinion is 'its in the drivers hands '.