ALMS 2012 Discussion

[JAG]

Some of the most significant news is the long-term ACO agreement and ALMS cars being allowed to run to ALMS specs at joint WEC races.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by AGD

Wasn't slick Rick Hendrick pardoned too? There's another frauding former IMSA owner too. Obviously, his team has legions of fans. Then again, his form of fraud (bribing Honda wasn't it?) may be viewed as being less disgraceful than what Tucker has done and is accused of doing.

Anyway, Tucker's case may be small compared to everyone else, but it is a pretty big deal within the racing circles.

Also, I wonder if Tucker hung out with Randy Lanier and John Paul at Leavenworth. I'm not sure where the Whittingtons served their time, but maybe they were there too. Anyway, Tucker seems to be much more refined with his scamming now than he was before Leavenworth. I wonder if he learned his tricks there.

LOL-- I moved the post over to Tucker's thread.

[KA]

Originally Posted by JAG

Some of the most significant news is the long-term ACO agreement and ALMS cars being allowed to run to ALMS specs at joint WEC races.

Also interesting to see what they're saying about Sebring- Maximum of 60 cars to start, and the grid to be split 50:50 between ALMS and WEC entries, even if WEC brings more than 30 cars...

[Matt]

At least the proper Aston will still be allowed in the ALMS.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Matt

At least the proper Aston will still be allowed in the ALMS.

But with Cytosport getting a new prototype in either ALMS or DP in Grand Am, I doubt we will see it.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

But with Cytosport getting a new prototype in either ALMS or DP in Grand Am, I doubt we will see it.

Dagys is thinking that Fernandez and AMR may run in the ALMS next year. It's a possibility, but we'll see.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by KA

Also interesting to see what they're saying about Sebring- Maximum of 60 cars to start, and the grid to be split 50:50 between ALMS and WEC entries, even if WEC brings more than 30 cars...

That seems insane. Is 1/3 of the WEC grid prepared to sacrifice their championship run so that some ALMS spec cars could come and play?!

[deggis]

Where was that mentioned?

[KA]

From DSC report earlier this evening

'Sebring will be a joint WEC/ ALMS race – with 60 cars accommodated by a revised pitlane (not the 62 we reported this morning – The surprise is that that grid will be determined 50:50 between the WEC and ALMS, even if the WEC brings more than 30 cars to Florida'.

[deggis]

Dagys:

Atherton confirmed that up to 60 starting positions will be available for the combined ALMS and WEC season-opener, with work already underway to expand the pit lane in order to accommodate the increased field.

ALMS and WEC cars will have equal representation in the once-around-the-clock Florida classic, with teams in both series qualifying for positions in the race.

Additionally, ALMS teams are expected to be recognized in their own categories for the race, with ALMS LMP1 teams, for instance, being able to run in their season-long rules configuration.

More classes? Yeah that's exactly what is needed...

LMC director Frederic-Henry Biabaud confirmed to SPEED.com that no decision has been made for the second North/South American race for the WEC, but would not rule out of the Petit Le Mans being a possibility.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...12-wec-season/

[Simmi]

Won't work unless the WEC employs some kind of dropped score thing. Or guarantee LM entries to those shut out - which would actually suit a lot of teams. But then if they were full season participants they would likely be granted entry anyway.

Maybe they are bargaining on a number of new projects not being completed on time to make it into the show. But really if the ACO allows some challenge cars to oust pukka LMP2/GTE entries then that is very surprising.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

That seems insane. Is 1/3 of the WEC grid prepared to sacrifice their championship run so that some ALMS spec cars could come and play?!

I think someone might be overestimating the size of the 2012 WEC grid, I highly doubt it'll have much more than 25-35 full time entries anyways...

[Livininthinair]

Yes keep in mind there has to be 30 ALMS + 30 WEC entrants to make that math work - no telling if there will be that many on either side, only time will tell. + IMHO the GTC class should not be part of the WEC rounds (Sebring/Petit) - i'm still sitting on the fence when it comes to LMPC being part of the WEC other than it is a good stepping stone for new teams.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Won't work unless the WEC employs some kind of dropped score thing. Or guarantee LM entries to those shut out - which would actually suit a lot of teams. But then if they were full season participants they would likely be granted entry anyway.

Maybe they are bargaining on a number of new projects not being completed on time to make it into the show. But really if the ACO allows some challenge cars to oust pukka LMP2/GTE entries then that is very surprising.

It's been mentioned the ALMS GTC grid will be limited to five entries and we don't yet know how many LMPC's will return.

[Deleted]

Furthermore I think it's a fair and good move. While I don't necessarily like the idea of some of the Challenge cars possibly taking priority over proper LMP/GT entries, ACO is actually recognizing the status of ALMS as regional series and not treating them like dead, wet carpet (*cough LMS cough*). IMSA doesn't give up so easily...

[AGD]

I am a bit confused. Will there be two different winners (one ALMS & one WEC) for LMP1, LMP2, & GTE-Pro/GT? Where will potential one-offs slot in within the 30/30 framework?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by AGD

Where will potential one-offs slot in within the 30/30 framework?

It doesn't seem like there will be space, nor should there be.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

It doesn't seem like there will be space, nor should there be.

I don't know, United got into Petit even though there wasn't room. Granted, LMPC/GTC teams hard to go home to make it happen. Hypothetically, say there are 29 entries each. That would leave room for one-offs in either series. Where would they be entered? WEC P2 (let's just say) or ALMS P2?

[seanyb505]

Originally Posted by AGD

I am a bit confused. Will there be two different winners (one ALMS & one WEC) for LMP1, LMP2, & GTE-Pro/GT?

Dyson scored first place points at Sebring despite finishing 6th. Oreca also scored maximum points so it looks like yes, two winners, but only one present on the top step.

[WolfsburgRS]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Furthermore I think it's a fair and good move. While I don't necessarily like the idea of some of the Challenge cars possibly taking priority over proper LMP/GT entries, ACO is actually recognizing the status of ALMS as regional series and not treating them like dead, wet carpet (*cough LMS cough*). IMSA doesn't give up so easily...

I like it too. I think it's....almost exactly what I suggested a few weeks back - Basically "hey WEC, sure, come and join our fine race at Sebring, arguably the most important sports car race aside from Le Mans, but don't expect our teams to take a back seat or revert to rules which unfairly handicap them just so you can do it. You're the guest in our house remember..."

You know what I would like to see? Some serious loosening of the restrictor rules for IMSA LMP1 cars....with the right "waivers" in place for the whole field in 2012, you might just see an IMSA LMP1 car fighting at the sharp end at WEC events. It's not like the Aston, a Judd, or even a properly un-corked Mazda would struggle to make big power. Aero, chassis, development yes, but it would be a real joy to see the petrol cars from IMSA keeping up with the favored diesels. David and Goliath, and all that.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by seanyb505

Dyson scored first place points at Sebring despite finishing 6th. Oreca also scored maximum points so it looks like yes, two winners, but only one present on the top step.

Yeah, but that's what I am wondering. Dyson got 1st place points at Sebring, but they were not recognized as winning anything as far as I know. Will that change now? Maybe there will be two podiums? And what if the ALMS gives petrol teams mega restrictors and the beat the diesel giants? Or if they beat one of the WEC GTE-Pro teams? Hmm. I'm just confused really!

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AGD

I don't know, United got into Petit even though there wasn't room. Granted, LMPC/GTC teams hard to go home to make it happen. Hypothetically, say there are 29 entries each. That would leave room for one-offs in either series. Where would they be entered? WEC P2 (let's just say) or ALMS P2?

Also consider teams who compete in both series, i.e. Level 5, and manufactuers represented by different teams, i.e BMW.

On paper the above would need seven to eight entries at Sebring but in reality they'd only take up four.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by AGD

I don't know, United got into Petit even though there wasn't room.

Didn't United partner up with a full season entrant though?

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Lets be honest here: 56 cars showed up for Sebring this year, of those ALMS starters West Racing is already gone, Robertson (started 2 cars this year) is likely gone, Autocon likely gone, Risi and Muscle Milk possibly gone (although for Risi it could be WEC) and more importantly a limit on the GTC field to only Five cars, (9 started Sebring this year) I doubt the full season ALMS grid will be above 30 with no new teams in sight unless there is a large expansion in either LMP2 or LMPC.

If you subracted the likely *gone for 2012* cars from this years Sebring list (including 4 GTC cars) you would have 49 cars. If you take away Muscle Milk fom the list, 48. So unless there is a large increase in the WEC grid (should be an increase though) or the ALMS grid (which looks to lose grid size for next year) this should not be a significant issue, at least for 2012.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Didn't United partner up with a full season entrant though?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the second OAK/DAMS P2 is not an ILMC entry.

Originally Posted by JAG

Also consider teams who compete in both series, i.e. Level 5, and manufactuers represented by different teams, i.e BMW.

On paper the above would need seven to eight entries at Sebring but in reality they'd only take up four.

See, this is where things could get confusing. Ok, BMW won't be in the WEC AFAIK next year, but let's say they are and the IMSA and ACO rules for the BMW remain different as they are now. BMW would have to enter 4 cars to maintain their championship status I would think. 2 for the WEC rules and 2 for the ALMS rules. Now maybe they would only have to enter 2 if they were the same rules, but would that work? I don't know. If you "win" the ALMS race, do you also win the WEC race?

As for Level 5, I assume they could just enter one car as an ALMS car and the other a WEC car. Maybe Tucker could score points in both that way if they are seperate races. If they are the same race, however, I guess he could only be scored in one. RIght?

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Lets be honest here: 56 cars showed up for Sebring this year, of those ALMS starters West Racing is already gone, Robertson (started 2 cars this year) is likely gone, Autocon likely gone, Risi and Muscle Milk possibly gone (although for Risi it could be WEC) and more importantly a limit on the GTC field to only Five cars, (9 started Sebring this year) I doubt the full season ALMS grid will be above 30 with no new teams in sight unless there is a large expansion in either LMP2 or LMPC.

If you subracted the likely *gone for 2012* cars from this years Sebring list (including 4 GTC cars) you would have 49 cars. If you take away Muscle Milk fom the list, 48. So unless there is a large increase in the WEC grid (should be an increase though) or the ALMS grid (which looks to lose grid size for next year) this should not be a significant issue, at least for 2012.

There have been ALMS additions since Sebring too though and a few ILMC teams did not show up at Sebring. Oryx and Autocon have been added on the ALMS side. I'm not counting LMPC and GTC cars. Departures include West and one Robertson car. Has there been anyone else?

EDIT: Also, making independent class structures could make it easier for the ALMS to merge LMP1 and LMP2. I know they aren't doing that for 2012, but maybe it could be on the table again in 2013.