MSNZ & TMC - 'Wheels start to come off'

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by on_to_it

Probably so, but I have heard many times that at past AGM's questions have been tabled requesting additional information about outgoings from the TMC accounts, and the TMC response has been to refuse to provide that information. Is that not correct?

Anything to say on that one Kerry, ah I mean Promax??

[promax]

my name isn't Kerry.

Goat Boy you really need to grow some balls and tell these people you dislike.. how you really.. feel face to face.. rather than accusing people on forums of being people they aren't. you've got a history of doing this

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by promax

my name isn't Kerry.

Goat Boy you really need to grow some balls and tell these people you dislike.. how you really.. feel face to face.. rather than accusing people on forums of being people they aren't. you've got a history of doing this

It's fun though! I like to repeat what I hear on the grapevine and see who bites, and it's really only you and Rev who get targeted, but he's boring now as we know who he is and he's not Kerry...

I still think you are not only Kerry, but Steve, Dave, Geoff and Shayne...

A different person when you wake up every day

[harcey]

Originally Posted by on_to_it

Probably so, but I have heard many times that at past AGM's questions have been tabled requesting additional information about outgoings from the TMC accounts, and the TMC response has been to refuse to provide that information. Is that not correct?

for sure mate but did i not mention the two slippery;s MF and KC in my post.......thought i had covered it.....there will be way more issues than the agm's accounts............in the past MNZ folk would have probably thought TMC were doing a great job........wheels have been falling off over the past couple of years at an increasing rate....thats when it would have started dawning on MNZ that TMC were to be added to the list of problems.....

[promax]

isn't it obvious.. i'm Jerico's son *shrugs*

[Mr Revhead]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

It's fun though! I like to repeat what I hear on the grapevine and see who bites, and it's really only you and Rev who get targeted, but he's boring now as we know who he is and he's not Kerry...

I still think you are not only Kerry, but Steve, Dave, Geoff and Shayne...

A different person when you wake up every day

Oi! I'm interesting in my own way

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

Oi! I'm interesting in my own way

Fair enough

[Club racer]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

It's fun though! I like to repeat what I hear on the grapevine and see who bites, and it's really only you and Rev who get targeted, but he's boring now as we know who he is and he's not Kerry...

I still think you are not only Kerry, but Steve, Dave, Geoff and Shayne...

A different person when you wake up every day

Didn't anybody hear anything on the grapevine today??

[Jerico]

Originally Posted by promax

isn't it obvious.. i'm Jerico's son *shrugs*

Come on son time for bed, you can dream all about the new NZV8's in bed, all 4 of them.

Hurry up Teddy's waiting for you.

[Club racer]

Originally Posted by promax

my name isn't Kerry.

Goat Boy you really need to grow some balls and tell these people you dislike.. how you really.. feel face to face.. rather than accusing people on forums of being people they aren't. you've got a history of doing this

Lots of people tried to speak their mind at the AGM and were presented with what - in hindsight now - was clearly another pack of lies from TMC execs, endorsed by MSNZ, in front of a large group. A group consisting entirely of representatives of the actual people who pay the salaries of these muppets.

It's not about growing balls or manning up to tell people how you feel either - it's about people breaking the commercial law of the land and bullies intimidating those with the brains to spot it. For me it's laughable and in any other civilised country there would not just be Rvenue investigations, but legal investigations. One can only hope the legal system in this country 'has the balls' as you say, to expose these criminals for what they are and punish them accordingly. I bet Dovey is regretting getting involved with these spivs so late in the day. A fool if ever there was one. The game's up.

[promax]

Originally Posted by Jerico

Come on son time for bed, you can dream all about the new NZV8's in bed, all 5 of them.

Hurry up Teddy's waiting for you.

okay dad

nite

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Club racer

Lots of people tried to speak their mind at the AGM and were presented with what - in hindsight now - was clearly another pack of lies from TMC execs, endorsed by MSNZ, in front of a large group. A group consisting entirely of representatives of the actual people who pay the salaries of these muppets.

It's not about growing balls or manning up to tell people how you feel either - it's about people breaking the commercial law of the land and bullies intimidating those with the brains to spot it. For me it's laughable and in any other civilised country there would not just be Rvenue investigations, but legal investigations. One can only hope the legal system in this country 'has the balls' as you say, to expose these criminals for what they are and punish them accordingly. I bet Dovey is regretting getting involved with these spivs so late in the day. A fool if ever there was one. The game's up.

Yes well Dovey lost any credibility when he had that spat on Facebook with the Suzuki Swift Sport Cup people, and came straight out accusing the ST people of talking ********, when in fact he had no idea what he was talking about. Haven't heard from him since but it is now known that the "v" in his surname has widely been replaced with a "p"

[Goat Boy]

And since Maxi gave me the biggest bite about being KC, perhaps conclusions can be drawn there

[promax]

And since GB didn't defend his balls... perhaps conclusions can be drawn there

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by promax

And since GB didn't defend his balls... perhaps conclusions can be drawn there

My comments are funnier than yours

[Goat Boy]

I want to know how I can get a second green dot?

[Club racer]

Getting back to the thread title for just a moment. If some of the rumours doing the rounds are true, then the wheels look like they are fully off, gone and that what's left is well and truly ablaze. It's all out there and anyone can find it if you care to look in the right places.......

• No more MPL/TMC
• Pretty much ordered to stop trading (though that is based on comment from here)
• SuperTourers win the IP case
• MSNZ ordered to pay them damages
• Judge recommends investigation into MSNZ
• Rumours of an absolutely massive accounting 'black hole' in MSNZ accounts
• Rumours of TV3 owed in excess of $100k in addition to that

In summary, that would seem to me to be game over for MSNZ good and proper if the rumours are true. This could (should?) mean a huge changing of the guard and a complete re-think of how motorsport in this country is governed and run. And good riddance to those who have been clipping the ticket for their back pockets not motorsport. We'll be so much better off without you.

Seems odd that Shaun and his troops are not all over this? He reads the forums and has his finger on the pulse right? Or are they at Sandown and missing the climax to the party?

I guess therefore, that everything listed above MUST be just rumour, and not fact. Odd that so much talk is going on out there about it though. Odd indeed.

I'll wait for RogerH's comments - he's usually right on the money! We can all tick them off as 'True' or 'Untrue'.....

Wonder how much my license will be going up next time?

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by Club racer

Getting back to the thread title for just a moment. If some of the rumours doing the rounds are true, then the wheels look like they are fully off, gone and that what's left is well and truly ablaze. It's all out there and anyone can find it if you care to look in the right places.......

• No more MPL/TMC
• Pretty much ordered to stop trading (though that is based on comment from here)
• SuperTourers win the IP case
• MSNZ ordered to pay them damages
• Judge recommends investigation into MSNZ
• Rumours of an absolutely massive accounting 'black hole' in MSNZ accounts
• Rumours of TV3 owed in excess of $100k in addition to that

In summary, that would seem to me to be game over for MSNZ good and proper if the rumours are true. This could (should?) mean a huge changing of the guard and a complete re-think of how motorsport in this country is governed and run. And good riddance to those who have been clipping the ticket for their back pockets not motorsport. We'll be so much better off without you.

Seems odd that Shaun and his troops are not all over this? He reads the forums and has his finger on the pulse right? Or are they at Sandown and missing the climax to the party?

I guess therefore, that everything listed above MUST be just rumour, and not fact. Odd that so much talk is going on out there about it though. Odd indeed.

I'll wait for RogerH's comments - he's usually right on the money! We can all tick them off as 'True' or 'Untrue'.....

Wonder how much my license will be going up next time?

I think you are correct with no more TMC/MPL. MPL has ceased trading due to it's financial position which can be interpreted as it being insolvent. I understand that promotion for the NZV8s for the coming season is being run out of MSNZ's offices by Brian Budd and Wayne Christie - this will no doubt incur costs which will be borne by member clubs when it was clear from the last AGM that MSNZ would not continue to fund TMC (Tier1/NZV8).

I would expect that the TMC/MPL's deficit could be significant and there are certainly exposures to MSNZ that will be unable to be repaid. The trouble was that MSNZ as a 60% shareholder did not understand what obligations went with their majority interest (held on behalf of member clubs). I was astounded when I asked a MSNZ Executive last year what they were doing to address the issues with TMC and was told that they didn't do anything as they just left TMC to do its own thing.

On top of this we were feed stories by TMC/MPL management. At the last AGM I specifically asked Martin Fine at question time, what was the financial result for the last year's unpublished accounts - he advised that it would probably be break even. An hour or so beforehand Kerry Cooper had told me that TMC had incurred a relatively significant loss. I think Kerry was probably correct and Fine was either telling stories or playing with the truth. The problem was that the TMC/MPL guys ended up lacking credibility and MSNZ Executive, even though they had been put on notice to take action, did too little too late - possibly as they don't have the corporate experience to know what to do.

I am not really privy to the legalities of the ST (ST directors) case but I see a number of problems for VEEGA/MSNZ. Firstly it will be a very expensive exercise and while part of VEEGA's costs have been funded privately I understand that loans from MSNZ to MPL (probably now irrecoverable) have been lent on from MPL to VEEGA to fund legal costs. When the legal action really gets going the costs will significantly escalate and the funding for VEEGA may cause problems. VEEGA must also prepare itself for having costs awarded against it if their action is unsuccessful.

Secondly, it seems strange that MSNZ (who despite their protests are aligned to VEEGA) want to reach an understanding with ST and at the same time they are (at least indirectly) involved in suing them. On this basis I could see the legal action being dropped if there is sincerity in MSNZ's desire to reach a compromise with ST.

There is also the litigation risk - no matter how confident you are about the merits of your position you are subject to the decision of a judge who may not see it your way. An adjunct to this is the risk of disclosure through the discovery process or third part discovery. I don't know if ST have initiated third party discovery against MSNZ but this is a possibility. The risk to MSNZ is that there could be some potentially embarrassing documents that could cause MSNZ problems.

It is a very sad time for the sport as credibility has been lost and this will have ramifications on competitors, sponsors etc. The annoying thing is that these issues were raised with MSNZ over several years and they either ignored them or didn't know what to do. If they had been proactive we wouldn't be in this current position.

[Woolley]

*sigh* Another NZ thread, another heap of time wasted deleting rubbish. Wise up guys and debate the subject properly or we're just going to have to ban New Zealand.

[RogerH]

There has been an update with the legal position between VEEGA and the ST directors.

Yesterday the High Court reached a decision with regards to procedural matters relating to the case.

This decision is a public document and can be obtained through a number of sources - it makes interesting reading. The reference number to the decision document are CIV-2012-404-000740 [2012] NZHC 2350. The case is NZ Vee Eight Entrants Group Association Limited v Mark James Wayne Petch (and others).

From my reading of the decision it looks like it is more of a "win" for the ST directors rather than VEEGA. The Court has declared that V8ST Limited be joined as a defendant to the proceedings but more importantly it has declared that $50,000 security for costs are to be paid by VEEGA (interestingly the decision records an affidavit by Martin Fine saying that VEEGA is not in the position to pay these costs - so presumably other parties will need to front up) and that the VEEGA proceedings will be stayed (put on hold) until VEEGA discloses to the Judge everything to do with the litigation funding.

This could cause some real problems as VEEGA would need to disclose who has funded and the amounts and what arrangements have been made - including with TMC/MPL and MSNZ (if any).

If there is any evidence of a direct or indirect MSNZ involvement (I don't know the answer to this) the decision indicates that it could initiate a claim against MSNZ including under the Commerce Act. It could well put MSNZ in a difficult position as any action it has taken to curtail the activity of a group or competitors from competing in the sport could be in conflict of it's role as the FIA appointed national ASN. Such action could also be unlawful under general legal provisions and therefore form the basis of a claim or a strike out application.

This is the old gripe with MSNZ where many have accused it of letting it's commercial interests (TMC/MPL) influence it's regulatory and administrative roles. The argument is that the regulatory body shouldn't be involved it commercial activities as these could create conflicts of interest. It now looks as though this decision from the High Court could be the start of this issue coming home to roost - time will tell.

[Mr Revhead]

So could end up not going any further due to funding issues even If Petch and co are as guilty as guilty can be.
Bet it will be portrayed as a win vindication.

[flyingduck]

Originally Posted by Woolley

*sigh* Another NZ thread, another heap of time wasted deleting rubbish. Wise up guys and debate the subject properly or we're just going to have to ban New Zealand.

I do agree Woolley that this thread does move from extremely good to extremely trivial when the attacks start and get aimed at each other.

Roger it will be interesting to see if MSNZ. Has tipped any money into this and with NZ huge roll currently on the board of the FIA I hope some sense comes from the top to start to do the job of administration of Motorsport and not the promotion of it.

With Hartley in a F1 car overnight and Evans winning gp3 it shows we have the talent and I do give MSNZ the credit for the great Driver development course they put on. I know a lot of drivers have got a lot out of it I just we could talk more about that than the failings at the top.

If the FIA took action against MSNZ what would you guys want to see done with Motorsport administration in NZ.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by RogerH

I think you are correct with no more TMC/MPL. MPL has ceased trading due to it's financial position which can be interpreted as it being insolvent. I understand that promotion for the NZV8s for the coming season is being run out of MSNZ's offices by Brian Budd and Wayne Christie - this will no doubt incur costs which will be borne by member clubs when it was clear from the last AGM that MSNZ would not continue to fund TMC (Tier1/NZV8).

I would expect that the TMC/MPL's deficit could be significant and there are certainly exposures to MSNZ that will be unable to be repaid. The trouble was that MSNZ as a 60% shareholder did not understand what obligations went with their majority interest (held on behalf of member clubs). I was astounded when I asked a MSNZ Executive last year what they were doing to address the issues with TMC and was told that they didn't do anything as they just left TMC to do its own thing.

On top of this we were feed stories by TMC/MPL management. At the last AGM I specifically asked Martin Fine at question time, what was the financial result for the last year's unpublished accounts - he advised that it would probably be break even. An hour or so beforehand Kerry Cooper had told me that TMC had incurred a relatively significant loss. I think Kerry was probably correct and Fine was either telling stories or playing with the truth. The problem was that the TMC/MPL guys ended up lacking credibility and MSNZ Executive, even though they had been put on notice to take action, did too little too late - possibly as they don't have the corporate experience to know what to do.

I am not really privy to the legalities of the ST (ST directors) case but I see a number of problems for VEEGA/MSNZ. Firstly it will be a very expensive exercise and while part of VEEGA's costs have been funded privately I understand that loans from MSNZ to MPL (probably now irrecoverable) have been lent on from MPL to VEEGA to fund legal costs. When the legal action really gets going the costs will significantly escalate and the funding for VEEGA may cause problems. VEEGA must also prepare itself for having costs awarded against it if their action is unsuccessful.

Secondly, it seems strange that MSNZ (who despite their protests are aligned to VEEGA) want to reach an understanding with ST and at the same time they are (at least indirectly) involved in suing them. On this basis I could see the legal action being dropped if there is sincerity in MSNZ's desire to reach a compromise with ST.

There is also the litigation risk - no matter how confident you are about the merits of your position you are subject to the decision of a judge who may not see it your way. An adjunct to this is the risk of disclosure through the discovery process or third part discovery. I don't know if ST have initiated third party discovery against MSNZ but this is a possibility. The risk to MSNZ is that there could be some potentially embarrassing documents that could cause MSNZ problems.

It is a very sad time for the sport as credibility has been lost and this will have ramifications on competitors, sponsors etc. The annoying thing is that these issues were raised with MSNZ over several years and they either ignored them or didn't know what to do. If they had been proactive we wouldn't be in this current position.

A great example of why the national FIA bodies don't need to be mucking around running racing series.

The fact this whole litigation thing is going on with V8ST just tells me their priorities are not on straight. Why waste the time and money? V8ST is long established and on their way. You can't restrain trade and prevent people from leaving and moving on with something else.

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by flyingduck

I do agree Woolley that this thread does move from extremely good to extremely trivial when the attacks start and get aimed at each other.

Roger it will be interesting to see if MSNZ. Has tipped any money into this and with NZ huge roll currently on the board of the FIA I hope some sense comes from the top to start to do the job of administration of Motorsport and not the promotion of it.

With Hartley in a F1 car overnight and Evans winning gp3 it shows we have the talent and I do give MSNZ the credit for the great Driver development course they put on. I know a lot of drivers have got a lot out of it I just we could talk more about that than the failings at the top.

If the FIA took action against MSNZ what would you guys want to see done with Motorsport administration in NZ.

I agree that MSNZ does a lot of things right (and I have been on record saying this) but unfortunately in life, one bad decision can upset lots of good ones.

My concern for a long time has primarily been with MSNZ merging it's role as a regulator with it's commercial activities. This relationship has been at the root of the TMC/MPL issue and the potential direct or indirect involvement with the ST litigation. These issues start to take focus because they are controversial and polarise people - unfortunately they can dominate the good news such as the excellent achievements of the likes of Hartley and Evans - that is sad.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

So could end up not going any further due to funding issues even If Petch and co are as guilty as guilty can be.
Bet it will be portrayed as a win vindication.

I don't think you have actually been reading the posts at all have you? From what I hear MSNZ could actually be in the gun big time here, to the point where they are no longer the FIA's representative in NZ, meaning someone else will have to do it.

My other understanding on the IP case is that ST have a very good case and a very good IP lawyer in Chris Abbott, who would not have allowed the breakaway to occur unless they were on very solid ground. Knowing Chris personally I can tell you that he is not of dodgy character or illegal dealings, he is just very good at his job and has done a lot of good things for motorsport in NZ.

So I would suggest that if you are going to make comments like that then you have good grounds for them, which I suspect you don't as you never do, do you?