[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[Creep89]

They are destroying the sport, once again.

[Spyderman]

I think that was referent to when they were first making the Hybrid rules; at least I hope so. It is still a very silly objective, and I sincerely hope they have moved on since excreting that idea.

[J Jay]

These statements from the ACO seem to imply that they thought the hybrid development would focus on extending stint lengths rather than improving lap times. Even as far back as 2012 it was clear that wasn't going to be the case, using hybrid power in conjunction with the engine was always going to be the faster option overall.

It will be interesting (and slightly sad) to see if they will push the regulations towards using hybrids to partially replace the ICE rather than complementing them as is the case now.

Edit - Beat you to it cokata

[cokata]

Originally Posted by deggis

http://www.fiawec.com/en/news/lmp1-g...flow_3166.html

I do remember there (in this thread too) were some genuine worry that the cars would be barely faster than LMP2 or something like that.

Writing is definitely on the wall for major slowdown for either next year or 2017.

I saw that too, but i doubt it's really what they wanted. They probably expected with large cut in fuel consumption the cars to be a lot less powerful. 3:35 lap and 310kph top speed is bang on P2 cars. No way they want that. And P2 is set to get faster in 2017.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by TzeiTzei

So let's enjoy this while it lasts

That's why would be better to have incremental and small advancements in lap times over many years instead of the current huge gains in a year or two. So better circlejerk harder than ever (altough I'm already tired of it) to the upcoming 3.1x pole because it won't happen again next year or at least not in 2017.

Originally Posted by Creep89

They are destroying the sport, once again.

They are only destroying naive dreams of pseudo-unlimited or never again limited cars.

Originally Posted by Spyderman

I think that was referent to when they were first making the Hybrid rules; at least I hope so. It is still a very silly objective, and I sincerely hope they have moved on since excreting that idea.

I agree that the context is a bit weird. Even if that meant the bare minimum worst-case-speed they expected, it is obvious that the effect or ERS part was undervalued and that the cars are currently faster than ACO really wants them to be.

[wolfhound]

You also need to look at where the time is being gained at LeMans. For example Nissan was the fastest thing through the speed traps but was a long way from the fastest time. Mean while Porsche set the fastest time but was third or fourth in the speed traps.
The other thing is that the new rules will speed up the P2's so they cannot afford to slow P1's too much. I would expect the ideal around LeMans should be about a 10 second gap so that would mean trying to slow P1's to about 3:25. How to do it is the question. It would be easy to cut fuel flow but I suspect that is not all the answer.

[Spyderman]

The good news (I suppose) is that Hartley does not think the 3:15 or 3:16 will be achieved this year. (see Porsche thread for link)

[TF110]

I think theyll be about 4 or 5 seconds faster. I would guess they all can do 3:18's and maybe 17's or 16's? The track today wasnt its best and there was rain.

[deggis]

http://www.fiawec.com/wpphpFichiers/...15.pdf#page=13

[wolfhound]

It almost a certain that the LMP1 cars are going to be slowed down next year, it is just a matter of the options to do it Vincent Beaumesnil from the ACO has said.

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/l...ction-in-2016/

[cokata]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

It almost a certain that the LMP1 cars are going to be slowed down next year, it is just a matter of the options to do it Vincent Beaumesnil from the ACO has said.

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/l...ction-in-2016/

Maybe i'm hopeful but i read this as we don't want them to get any faster than now, and not we need to slow them now. In 2011 the P1s were dangerously slow on the straights, and was the main reason for the risky overtakes leading to the crashes.

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by cokata

In 2011 the P1s were dangerously slow on the straights

maybe a few of private lmp1 that weren't able to hit 330km/h, but in 2011 908 were able to pass easily 340km/h and R18 >330km/h even if they were using a more HD setting than peugeot

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

It almost a certain that the LMP1 cars are going to be slowed down next year, it is just a matter of the options to do it Vincent Beaumesnil from the ACO has said.

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/l...ction-in-2016/

Not surprised to see this happening because the cars shouldn't really get any faster than they're now. And with the continued development, no changes would mean they'd be even faster next year... and it's all fun and games until something terrible happens.

I think 3:20 is a sensible target lap time for Le Mans. 3:30 was too slow but 3:20 is just right, everything below that means asking for trouble.

[Pandemonium]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Not surprised to see this happening because the cars shouldn't really get any faster than they're now. And with the continued development, no changes would mean they'd be even faster next year... and it's all fun and games until something terrible happens.

I think 3:20 is a sensible target lap time for Le Mans. 3:30 was too slow but 3:20 is just right, everything below that means asking for trouble.

Wow what are you associated with the ACO?. LOL F1 is faster and nothing happens. Dont tell me Le Mans is more dangerous than Monza. The ACO keep hiring rulemakers with one singel braincell. I like LMP1 because of their speed. This is a very stupid move in my opinion. They are faster in the corners anyway. I already went on twitter and shared my opinion with Toyota Audi Porsche and Pierre.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Pandemonium

Wow what are you associated with the ACO?. LOL F1 is faster and nothing happens. Dont tell me Le Mans is more dangerous than Monza. The ACO keep hiring rulemakers with one singel braincell. I like LMP1 because of their speed. This is a very stupid move in my opinion. They are faster in the corners anyway. I already went on twitter and shared my opinion with Toyota Audi Porsche and Pierre.

F1 dosen't have multi-class racing, dosen't race at night etc. So this is a nonsensical comparison to begin with.

We already got a few close calls over the years, big accidents that happened involving a LMP1 and a slower GT car. If the speed differential gets even larger, these things are more likely to happen and I for one don't want anybody to get seriously hurt just for 2-3 seconds quicker lap times.

And yes, Le Mans is more dangerous than Monza, for the reasons explained above, plus the fact that it is simply not as safe as a Grand Prix track. Have you forgotten about Alan Simonsen already?

[deggis]

It is a shame in a way because the speeds have to be maintained nearly only because of Le Mans. On all other tracks (at least the Grade 1 ones they visit now) they aren't too fast.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by deggis

It is a shame in a way because the speeds have to be maintained nearly only because of Le Mans. On all other tracks (at least the Grade 1 ones they visit now) they aren't too fast.

Well, we can't have it both ways and moan about Tilkedromes and yet complain about Le Mans not being as safe.

I really don't see why we need lap times quicker than 3:20 to be honest. 2011, when the cars were deemed "slow", was the most epic race in the last 15 years and one of the best Le Mans of all times.

It's the on-track competition that makes or breaks the racing, not the sheer lap times.

[deggis]

That maybe come out the wrong way, this isn't a surprise to me in any way and I don't believe in some sort of unlimited series utopia either. Point was that on some Tilkedromes even the fastest cars have trouble looking spectacular.

Actually, all the circlejerking to the several second advancements has made just just tired of it because this slowdown was just so obviously coming. I would have rather had more incremental and small yearly advancements, without the need to make huge changes.

[Gingers4Justice]

Said on Mulsanne's Corner than a decision needs to be made between designing the circuits for the cars, of the cars for the circuits. In the world of Formula One, the former has destroyed a lot of good tracks across the world and that's partly why we have a massive surplus of Tilkedromes, where the other World Championships effectively have to visit to justify their existence.

I don't like many of the changes made at Le Mans but make no mistake, the circuit is still unique and provides a challenge like no other circuit on the WEC calendar. Keeping that character and challenge is far more important than keeping the speed.

And besides, 3:20 is not slow and will go again pretty quickly.

[Deleted]

Since this isn't ideal world of unlimited speeds and fantasy tracks, and most certainly not in modern setting, there are two options

- Make the cars ultra safe and artificially slower.
- Make the circuit(s) ultra safe and sterile as by-product.

But instead of picking just one they have utilized both

Anyway we ALL saw this coming, it was always in the cards as soon as we saw those early Ricard times, anyone saying otherwise is naive.

[DS"]

Simonsen's fatal accident was down to bad luck and not really due to high speed or a difference between protos and GTs. The bad accidents between the GT and the LMP cars in the past years were also due to some GT drivers screwing up badly. So I for one would like to see the high speed being kept at Le Mans. I for one don't think that human achievements should be restricted and this should also apply at this highest level of racing technology. Or else WEC becomes just another circus like F1 is nowadays.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by DS"

Simonsen's fatal accident was down to bad luck and not really due to high speed or a difference between protos and GTs. The bad accidents between the GT and the LMP cars in the past years were also due to some GT drivers screwing up badly. So I for one would like to see the high speed being kept at Le Mans. I for one don't think that human achievements should be restricted and this should also apply at this highest level of racing technology. Or else WEC becomes just another circus like F1 is nowadays.

+1 (what a breath of fresh air!)

[Deleted]

Yes there is lots of bad luck involved in most of these bigger incidents that have happened in the last few years. But always putting the blame on GT drivers (even as late as at Spa last month when officials automatically blamed them for #19 Porsche incident) in these cross-class incidents isn't helping arguments. The tiny windows and visibility of these modern prototypes are issue, as is drivers over eagerly wanting to pass traffic anywhere. And now that issue will only escalate when you have asphalt runoff on nearly every straight and corner at Sarthe, LMP1s passing GTs off the line in neutered Curves and elsewhere will cause massive incidents. Safety doesn't always actually leave to safety.

I'm more OK with neutered cars (as long as it doesn't mean spec components and show elements) than with neutered tracks that you have today. And at least with machinery the manufacturers will get around with the rules sooner and later because of *evolution* and you always have speeds and technology up

[TF110]

Theyll probably increase the weight and drop fuel flow by a few %. Cars will still be just as fast because theyll make gains and the rules for technology should open up. If GT is going to get faster, lmp2 will as well. They shouldnt have touched them from 2013 except make it a fuel flow formula. If you drop their power, how are they going to pass? Through the corners. That was mentioned in the article and it makes sense.

[PorscheFanNo1]

I actually wan to see the weight increase by 50kg or so, means more room for hybrid technology!