USCC (leave your axe outside) - Page 159

Maelochs · 4 Oct 2013, 09:36 (Ref:3312674)

Despite the current specs being extended to 2017 we need to keep in mind that the whole of TUSCC is an interim format. None of it is likely to be changed at all because the work has been done to create it, and now other work takes precedence: running a successful series and devising a 2017 spec.

Also--right now the Le Mans connection is only important to a few teams, but depending on the 2017 rules, that could change.

We already know that a lot of the (factory-supported and Very important to series health) GT teams are going to want to race at Le Mans.) Depending on the FIA/ACO prototype rules for 2017 a lot of the prototypes might also want to.

Le Mans is unmatched exposure for sponsors. Not every team is going to have international sponsors, but even national sponsors gain if the car can boast a successful foray at Le Mans.

Le Mans is the race most widely recognized outside the sports car world. Sponsors love to be able to claim their product went to Le Mans, because the phrase has meaning far beyond the narrow sports car racing community.

The fact that Le Mans is Mecca for almost every sports car racing participant from tire-changers to team owners is important, but the potential economic impact alone more than justifies keeping connection.

Salamus · 4 Oct 2013, 15:10 (Ref:3312780)

Leo Parente reviewing USCC and top 10 changes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxZ0MDeZnnc

jasonjessica09 · 4 Oct 2013, 19:08 (Ref:3312855)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salamus

Leo Parente reviewing USCC and top 10 changes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxZ0MDeZnnc

Leo's points are even better than just have GTLM be faster than LMPC. If LMP2/DP/LMPC/GTLM are all close in speeds we could have some great overall battles too. That is still possible by the way.

My desire and dream is a GTLM to win Daytona overall. Can it still be possible?

jeast · 4 Oct 2013, 19:27 (Ref:3312868)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JacobP

Why should there be a spec class in the main race anyways? No one comes to a sports car race to watch spec cars. Porsche cup races have established themselves as a popular support race for the main events. Perhaps one of those Porsche cup races can be combined with LMPC cars to create a more exciting support race?

Nascar ever seemed to worry to much about fans coming to watch a race, I mean DP is still around.

David Land · 4 Oct 2013, 20:28 (Ref:3312900)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasonjessica09

Leo's points are even better than just have GTLM be faster than LMPC. If LMP2/DP/LMPC/GTLM are all close in speeds we could have some great overall battles too. That is still possible by the way.

My desire and dream is a GTLM to win Daytona overall. Can it still be possible?

I think it might be possible under the current rules.

ACFlinn · 4 Oct 2013, 23:07 (Ref:3312945)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lagunaseca_4life

One thing too I agree that lmpc and gtc should be gone away with or lowered into a support race.they were created as grid fillers, and with a healthy gird size they will no longer be needed.i have no problem if tuscc eventually morphs into dp/p2 and gt-lm only essentially grand am v2 , as long as the old ga nonsense is dropped.

You're closing the door on almost half (17) of the total number of entries (35) at VIR this weekend.

That loss of 17 cars would have to be made up from somewhere.

Andy Flinn

MoMedic9019 · 5 Oct 2013, 00:12 (Ref:3312979)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lagunaseca_4life

One thing too I agree that lmpc and gtc should be gone away with or lowered into a support race.they were created as grid fillers, and with a healthy gird size they will no longer be needed.i have no problem if tuscc eventually morphs into dp/p2 and gt-lm only essentially grand am v2 , as long as the old ga nonsense is dropped.

You need to remember that TUSCC will only have the single P class. Everyone seems to think that DP/P2 are two classes. So, LMPC becomes the feeder class for P2/DP teams. Totally necessary.

GTC gets merged, and becomes GTD, so, not a spec class anymore.

In all honesty, LMPC will be the only spec class. And, if needed, the PC car is a P2 that just needs the proper upgrades from Oreca.

So, they are completely necessary.

Maelochs · 5 Oct 2013, 01:19 (Ref:3313000)

PC isn't going anywhere for the next three seasons, but after that, it won't be "necessary." Just as it was not necessary before the financial crisis and pullout of Acura, Porsche, and Audi made the class necessary just to get cars on the grid.

There is no reason teams can't step up from IMSA Lites or even GT if they want to, just as they did before. And if an Pro-Am Cup is added (as Rolex has) then the series can be pared down to three or even two classes.

In the same way, GT teams can cut their teeth in GT3 Cup.

I think moving to two classes makes the series a lot more casual fan-friendly. The current class structure is a huge compromise made for a lot fo different reasons, but Not made to improve the racing or the fan experience.

The series should start with a clean sheet of paper when devisinfg its 2017 structure--and should start in 2015, so teams have plenty of warning and can plan their moves.

Salamus · 5 Oct 2013, 02:19 (Ref:3313014)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasonjessica09

Leo's points are even better than just have GTLM be faster than LMPC. If LMP2/DP/LMPC/GTLM are all close in speeds we could have some great overall battles too. That is still possible by the way.

My desire and dream is a GTLM to win Daytona overall. Can it still be possible?

No, it's not possible. GTLM will always be behind P and PC, end of.

Lagunaseca_4life · 5 Oct 2013, 02:26 (Ref:3313016)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACFlinn

You're closing the door on almost half (17) of the total number of entries (35) at VIR this weekend.

That loss of 17 cars would have to be made up from somewhere.

Andy Flinn

I'm not saying be gone with them right away, I mean over the next two years if the gt and prototype grid grows there will be no need for them.maybe morph it away from a grid filler spec class to an am category for the p class allowing them a tad bit more freedom and speed.

MoMedic9019 · 5 Oct 2013, 02:28 (Ref:3313017)

I actually like having LMPC around to be honest.

Salamus · 5 Oct 2013, 02:34 (Ref:3313018)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

I actually like having LMPC around to be honest.

Yeah, it provides awesome racing!

People are talking about dropping it (and GTC) without actually looking at the consequences.

HORNDAWG · 5 Oct 2013, 02:58 (Ref:3313022)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salamus

Yeah, it provides awesome racing!

People are talking about dropping it (and GTC) without actually looking at the consequences.

Or what the series has said! Pipedreams.....

L.P.

MoMedic9019 · 5 Oct 2013, 03:24 (Ref:3313027)

If I had my druthers, I'd like to see PC and P2 get merged, PC being the DP replacement.

HORNDAWG · 5 Oct 2013, 04:35 (Ref:3313046)

All things considered, I like the way the series/classes are being merged.

L.P.

ACFlinn · 5 Oct 2013, 08:29 (Ref:3313087)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

If I had my druthers, I'd like to see PC and P2 get merged, PC being the DP replacement.

For the past several years, DP has consistently had more entries than P2 and PC - and also P1 - COMBINED.

PC was created as an ALTERNATIVE to P2 - just like P2 was created as an alternative to LMP1. Keep it a separate class or you destroy the concept.

Andy Flinn

ACFlinn · 5 Oct 2013, 08:33 (Ref:3313092)

Quote:

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

All things considered, I like the way the series/classes are being merged.

L.P.

Victor_RO · 5 Oct 2013, 10:49 (Ref:3313120)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACFlinn

PC was created as an ALTERNATIVE to P2 - just like P2 was created as an alternative to LMP1. Keep it a separate class or you destroy the concept.

The PC class originally was created as FLM in Europe a full year before it came to the USA, and it wasn't supposed to be an alternative to P2, it was supposed to be a stepping stone to P2. Big difference.

Speed-King · 5 Oct 2013, 10:50 (Ref:3313121)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

The PC class originally was created as FLM in Europe a full year before it came to the USA, and it wasn't supposed to be an alternative to P2, it was supposed to be a stepping stone to P2. Big difference.

Wasn't that "old P2", though?

KA · 5 Oct 2013, 11:13 (Ref:3313125)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

The PC class originally was created as FLM in Europe a full year before it came to the USA, and it wasn't supposed to be an alternative to P2, it was supposed to be a stepping stone to P2. Big difference.

In fact, in Europe, didn't FLM run as a separate series (IIRC it was a support race at LMS meetings?) for the first couple of seasons, before it was rolled into the Le Mans Series races

Victor_RO · 5 Oct 2013, 11:33 (Ref:3313128)

Quote:

Originally Posted by KA

In fact, in Europe, didn't FLM run as a separate series (IIRC it was a support race at LMS meetings?) for the first couple of seasons, before it was rolled into the Le Mans Series races

For the whole of the 2009 LMS season, plus as a support race at Le Mans that year.

seanyb505 · 5 Oct 2013, 11:56 (Ref:3313131)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

I actually like having LMPC around to be honest.

Close at times, but close racing is only part of the equation. I know there are some good drivers that deserve rides but I've grown tired of watching the class interrupt GT battles and screen time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salamus

Yeah, it provides awesome racing!

People are talking about dropping it (and GTC) without actually looking at the consequences.

GTC is for the most part gone. Absorbed into GTD. I know it's a pipe dream, and the series has said this and that (I stopped having faith in what the alms says a few years ago). Right now the consequences at keeping the class is mediocrity and turning away world class entries for the big races. They were ultimately brought in as grid fillers and spun to fans as "stepping stones."

Soley based on entry list conversations on ten-tenths, does the grid need to be filled anymore? I don't think taking the class out of the main show ruins the racing ladder as it has been intended. I think it would encourage more stepping up. "Want to run in the big races? Move into a class that is part of the big races."

Salamus · 5 Oct 2013, 13:36 (Ref:3313152)

Quote:

Originally Posted by seanyb505

GTC is for the most part gone. Absorbed into GTD.

Semantics. GTD will slowly be converted into GT3 type cars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by seanyb505

I know it's a pipe dream, and the series has said this and that (I stopped having faith in what the alms says a few years ago).

What has the series said that they haven't delivered on yet? USCC has had every opportunity to screw this up and they have done a better job than almost anyone expected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by seanyb505

Right now the consequences at keeping the class is mediocrity and turning away world class entries for the big races. They were ultimately brought in as grid fillers and spun to fans as "stepping stones."

Who said they are going to turn away entries???

Quote:

Originally Posted by seanyb505

Soley based on entry list conversations on ten-tenths, does the grid need to be filled anymore? I don't think taking the class out of the main show ruins the racing ladder as it has been intended. I think it would encourage more stepping up. "Want to run in the big races? Move into a class that is part of the big races."

So you want to take out half the field and make them a support race. I'm sure their sponsors would be very happy. I'm sure the teams and investors in new equipment will appreciate being overlooked as "grid fillers". Make any case you want, GTD has been a part of "the big show" for a long time and PC for 4 years now.

Do you want to know the advantage of having PC and GTD? They are for amateurs, for people who enjoy racing and want to participate in the Daytona 24 and Sebring 12. The Big Show does not necessarily mean all-professional, look at the history of the Le Mans 24 and WEC.

seanyb505 · 5 Oct 2013, 15:38 (Ref:3313180)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salamus

What has the series said that they haven't delivered on yet? USCC has had every opportunity to screw this up and they have done a better job than almost anyone expected.

I did mention it was ALMS I've been doubting for a while. Remember the "If you knew what I knew" from recent years? I wasn't trying to imply that USCC would be a no starter, just that them same people are still at the helm. I take most statements with a grain of salt.

Who said they are going to turn away entries???

I should have clarified earlier in my post that most of my statement was based conversations here on ten-tenths and not what has actually happened, since it has not happened yet.

So you want to take out half the field and make them a support race. I'm sure their sponsors would be very happy. I'm sure the teams and investors in new equipment will appreciate being overlooked as "grid fillers". Make any case you want, GTD has been a part of "the big show" for a long time and PC for 4 years now.

I am looking only at PC since as I mentioned previously GTC is being absorbed into a non-spec class - so no, it wouldn't be half the field. I know they wouldn't like it. I see it more as raising the bar and therefore, the recognition of a premier series - something I see to be jeopardy.

Do you want to know the advantage of having PC and GTD? They are for amateurs, for people who enjoy racing and want to participate in the Daytona 24 and Sebring 12. The Big Show does not necessarily mean all-professional, look at the history of the Le Mans 24 and WEC.

PC has not been a recognized class at Le Mans. Nor the WEC. The real advantage of PC and GTC up until '14 was that it helped the series to not look so terrible when you go from 30-40 entries to 15. It was 100% introduced as an exercise in quantity over quality. I know the quality wasn't available, economy downturn, etc. It is was it is.

Personally (I don't run the series so it doesn't matter, save for my money not spent) I believe it was introduced to buy some time, and it should be dealt away with asap. I don't care if the only good from a driver or driver pairing winning a race in PC simply means they are the fastest driver, or had the best team. That isn't why I've come to follow sports car racing. The cars are the draw for me, and as I've said before, 30 Corollas providing close racing doesn't quite make me want to carve time and money out for a race weekend.

I do recognize that USCC would rather give preference to the full season entrants at big events. Maybe it's apples and oranges, but Le Mans only does that to an extent. WEC entries are guaranteed, and really an entry needs special merit or to have proven itself in certain circumstances.

Since USCC is having split races, maybe incorporate this concept to give the opportunity for international entries at select rounds. If the general feel from management is we don't want those entries, or international standing and would rather relegate the series to only a national level and not wanting the overseas involvement, well, sigh.

Sorry for disagreeing, the whole thing makes me sad.

HORNDAWG · 5 Oct 2013, 15:48 (Ref:3313182)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACFlinn

For the past several years, DP has consistently had more entries than P2 and PC - and also P1 - COMBINED.

PC was created as an ALTERNATIVE to P2 - just like P2 was created as an alternative to LMP1. Keep it a separate class or you destroy the concept.

Andy Flinn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

The PC class originally was created as FLM in Europe a full year before it came to the USA, and it wasn't supposed to be an alternative to P2, it was supposed to be a stepping stone to P2. Big difference.

I believe this is only a case of semantics, and you both are saying the same thing.

L.P.

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