When should Michael Schumacher retire?

[garcon]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

If you're talking about current F1 drivers, I think they find it amusing how poorly Schumacher is driving.

On the contrary, I think they'll find it reassuring that even the greatest driver of a generation can struggle with a car that doesn't suit him after a couple of years out. I also think they'll see the work being put in by Schumacher and the team and will fully expect him to be far more competitive next season.

But I wouldn't expect you to understand that.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by garcon

I also think they'll see the work being put in by Schumacher and the team and will fully expect him to be far more competitive next season.

I fully expect to see him bow out at the end of 2010.

All we can do is wait and see.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by garcon

On the contrary, I think they'll find it reassuring that even the greatest driver of a generation can struggle with a car that doesn't suit him after a couple of years out. I also think they'll see the work being put in by Schumacher and the team and will fully expect him to be far more competitive next season.

But I wouldn't expect you to understand that.

Yeah, talk to me like I'm an idiot, why don't you?

Are you a Schumy fan who's upset that he's been completely crap?

Ah, next season, next season. Funny that, all season we've had people saying "Wait for Monaco" or "Wait for such-and-such", and Schumacher gets further away from Mr Rosberg. Quite making excuses for him. Talking of quitting, when is Schumacher off? He's embarrassing himself.

[garcon]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

I fully expect to see him bow out at the end of 2010.

All we can do is wait and see.

Indeed. The team have already efectively written off this season, so are presumably some way down the line with next year's car. One would think Brawn and Schumacher will sit down at the end of this season and make a realistic assessment of the position. If they honestly believe they have the package to compete for the WDC then of course he'll continue. If they decide they can't, whether that's because the car or Schumacher isn't quick enough, then I hope he'll - all be it reluctantly - call it a day.

[Born Racer]

If they have the package for the WDC, it'll be Rosberg who wins it not the 'never was' that is Michael Schumacher. Greatest ever? Bull****.

[garcon]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Yeah, talk to me like I'm an idiot, why don't you?

Are you a Schumy fan who's upset that he's been completely crap?

Ah, next season, next season. Funny that, all season we've had people saying "Wait for Monaco" or "Wait for such-and-such", and Schumacher gets further away from Mr Rosberg. Quite making excuses for him. Talking of quitting, when is Schumacher off? He's embarrassing himself.

Well how else should I talk to you when you repeatedly show yourself up to be exactly that?

[garcon]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

If they have the package for the WDC, it'll be Rosberg who wins it not the 'never was' that is Michael Schumacher. Greatest ever? Bull****.

And again!


You'll be telling us Villeneuve was better next...

[Born Racer]

You're being an idiot. Shut up with calling me that.

[ASCII Man]

Now, now, girls.
Calm down.

Originally Posted by garcon

You'll be telling us Villeneuve was better next...

Oh.

Not cool, man.

Not cool.

[garcon]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

You're being an idiot.

Montoya then?

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by garcon

And again!


You'll be telling us Villeneuve was better next...

And again, what? You're rolling on the floor laughing because I contest the notion that he is the greatest ever as many (not necessarily yourself) have claimed over the years. He's being shown up by a driver that not many have touted as one of the future greats even if he is a very good driver. Stop defending the indefensible. Schumacher has been shown up in my view and cannot be uttered in the same breath as many greats. That's my opinion, but don't come here and insult me.

What the **** does Villeneuve have to do with it?

[Born Racer]

Montoya greater than Schumacher? No. Although he could have achieved a lot more than he did. But I don't know why you're bringing other drivers into this when I'm talking about how **** Schumacher is driving.

[garcon]

Just trying to find the level you believe Schumacher is, I guess.

Maybe my comments came over a little harsher than intended - but I do find your view of Schumacher simplistic in the extreme (even if it is one that is shared by millions of F1 fans out there...)

I was surprised when he came back, but the opportunity to work with Ross Brawn with a potentially competitive car was, I suppose, just too much to resist. I think this season he has learnt a few things - two in particular being that even having remained involved there's alot of catching up to do after only three years not driving, and that the thousands and thousands of miles of testing that he doesn't do now were crucial in developing the car.

I don't think other drivers, past or present, are laughing at him at all. Above all because they all know they'd have made the same decision.

I'm hopeful he'll be competitive next season. If not, I hope he'll retire gracefully with his legacy intact. The only people claiming his legacy is now tarnished are those who already claimed it was tarnished by his unsporting actions over the years. How ironic it is that many of those claim to be Senna fans.

(Another debate, but for me the greatest ever is and always will be Jim Clark.)

[Born Racer]

A more measured post. Good to see.

I was actually glad Schumacher came back. But he has added nothing, except for an unexpected point of interest.

I don't think other drivers, past or present, are laughing at him at all.

I would imagine there's an element of schadenfreude.

People can dress it up however they like, but why is one of the so-called greats getting beaten by Nico Rosberg? Because of the testing ban?

The only people claiming his legacy is now tarnished are those who already claimed it was tarnished by his unsporting actions over the years.

I would say his legacy is tarnished because he is showing he's not as good as most thought he was.

Another debate, but for me the greatest ever is and always will be Jim Clark

Even if someone greater one day comes along.

[garcon]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

A more measured post. Good to see.

I can manage it occasionally...

People can dress it up however they like, but why is one of the so-called greats getting beaten by Nico Rosberg? Because of the testing ban?

There is speculation in these pages and elsewhere covering literally hundreds of possible reasons. The truth, I think, is (as usual) a combination of factors - some permanent, some not. And we'll probably never really know which factors are/were most important.

I would say his legacy is tarnished because he is showing he's not as good as most thought he was.

I'm sure that's the way you, and lots of others, would like to see it. Alternatively, he's showing that he's now not as good as he undoubtedly was in his prime.

Even if someone greater one day comes along.

I don't think anyone will ever win Monaco by more than 5 minutes...

[Super Hans]

It is near-impossible to compare drivers from different eras. You can only compare drivers with their contempories. And out of all the great drivers in F1 history, nobody was so clearly better than his peers than Jim Clark. And not only was he great, he carried himself exceptionally well.

I visited his final resting place recently. His headstone (at his prior insistence) lists his profession as farmer before motor racing world champion. Sums him up.

[Born Racer]

Quite

I do know how to spell 'quit' even though I wrote it wrongly.

[garcon]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

It is near-impossible to compare drivers from different eras. You can only compare drivers with their contempories. And out of all the great drivers in F1 history, nobody was so clearly better than his peers than Jim Clark.

That's absolutely true - it will always be a subjective thing. Funnily enough, I go for Jim Clark for that very reason. It was symptomatic of the era, but no less a tragedy that his death came so relatively early - who knows how long he may have continued to dominate for.


Not visited Duns yet, but I shall when the chance arises.


(Sorry, bit of a diversion off topic there!)

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by garcon

Not visited Duns yet, but I shall when the chance arises.

You should.

The Jim Clark Room in the centre of Duns is excellent, though probably only worth a visit if you're in the area, as it is very small (literally one room). He is buried in the churchyard at nearby Chirnside.

Incidentally, the roads around the area are utterly fantastic. It's no wonder he got the bug.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by garcon

Maybe my comments came over a little harsher than intended - but I do find your view of Schumacher simplistic in the extreme (even if it is one that is shared by millions of F1 fans out there...)

I've thought about this and debated it a lot with my dad, so I haven't arrived at a simplistic conclusion. I think Schumacher is a hard worker who used to draw the team around him and he did a lot of testing, but he never took on a team-mate. Now he has, he's being beaten, which impacts on my view of his talents.

[Peter Mallett]

Once again there is only one answer to the original question.

NOW!

[Born Racer]

After Spa, so I can at least watch him there.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by garcon

the greatest driver of a generation

Pre-Alonso, yes. Once he and Alonso were battling, I'd say Alonso had the edge.

[Super Hans]

I wouldn't say Alonso and Schumacher were of the same generation. I'd suggest Schumacher's peers were Villeneuve, Hakkinen, Montoya, Coulthard, Frentzen, Irvine, Barrichello and so on.

[garcon]

Schumacher himself has always been pretty clear about who his toughest opponent was - Hakkinen. For two or three years it was a straight fight between equals.