Porsche 997 - Development Curve

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I don't see how to relates to the 997 GT3 RSR program

That article refers to "dissatisfied customers"(or something along those lines) near the end of it. Those dissatisfied customers may be GT2 teams.

I think that Porsche need to figure out what they want to do, because funding Penske like they're a factory team is probably a big drain, and the fact that Audi takes up most of VAG's racing money is an issue to. But as long as Piech-one of the inventors of VAG's TDI diesel technology-wants diesel cars racing in the top class in the ALMS/LMS/24 Hours of Le Mans, I don't see a Porsche LMP1 program in the near future, and the end of the RS Spyder program as a full factory effort(and becoming a true customer program) in the near future(probably at the end of the ALMS season).

That should free up some personel and money for the GT2 program.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Setting aside profit goals is never an option, yet stepping away form racing is. Look at BMW, while their F1 teams is doing well, they stepped back to develop their new 3 series car and the 3 series GT2 car for 2009 and beyond.

Wild guess here, Porcshe would close down the Prototype development and concentrate on GT production cars and new GT race cars. The real customer base and profits.

The 911 series cars may be way too old, but with years and years plus millions of D-marks invested in devleopment and engineering, dont think that will stop that line.

We are in agreement.
Perhaps I didn't express myself as clearly as I should have.
The short term profit goals (what ever they are) should be set aside. That does not mean running at loss, it just means that the targets need to be readjusted.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if prototype program is closed in order to concentrate on GT.
As for the 911's: It is a difficult decision, but they may not have a choice. Much will depend on Rule evolution.

[Dario911]

@ arakis

Sorry but... no! Mine are not conspiracy theories. All the things I've written are true. Pirelli's malice is not just an invention. I don't need use lies in my posts. It shouln't have any sense.
So, if you would believe that Ferraris were even faster than Porsches, well... You are free to do it!
But that's not the true! Ferraris were more tested and had were advantaged in this sense. But this yeare things are going to change. And Porsche will take their natural supremacy in GT classes, again.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Dario911

@ arakis

I don't need use lies in my posts.

I never said you did, I don't think u are a liar, I think you are a felow motorsports fan, and i am sure that if we ever met we would spend endless hours in frendly argument over a lot of beers.

I also think you are well informed and logical, the only problem with you is that for some reason you like porsche, just kiding, my best friend is a total porsche fanatic, just the same way I am total ferrari fanatic.

and like I said before If you have any evidence I woluld be glad to coment on it, but it the whole pirelli helping ferrari, is just pure Nationalyzm and you have nothing to back that up its worthless. It would be the same as saying that Panoz won 2006 sebring becouse he owns the series, or that panoz gt2 won at le mans 2006 becouse aco wanted to suck up to Dr.Panoz.

Its posible, there is a link there but its meaning less without evidence to back it up. my personal opinion is that Panoz won both events fair and squair

I cant wait to see at sebring , and trough the whole season, witch one of us is wright.

until then

The King is dead, (Porsche)
Long live the King! (Ferrari)

[Dario911]

Oh, I'm agree with you... If we could meet, we would speak about motorsport friendly, for hours and hours.
About Pirelli ok, I can understand nationalism, but malice is malice anyway! They were payed to produce tyres for Porsche, they didn't give them!
So, it's not a correct behaviour, in my opinion!
You have to remember how often the Porsche was in the first place in GT2 in several races: Bucarest, China, Spa (LMES) and many others.
But some troubles forced them to leave the lead of the race.
In Bucarest Porsche has lead the race, first overall for many lapses (and set the pole in GT2) but they were forced but a tyre failure and a stop and go, to leave the lead.
In China they've won the first race of the season, but were disqualified for the ground clearence (the front spoiler has been damaged during the race), at Spa (LMES) Porsche was clearly faster (you can read Bell's interview on www.endurance-info.com). But they had some troubles (tyres) and left the lead. At the same way of many other races, characherized by crashes and mistakes.
On this site you can find (in the old news) all the informations about what I've said.
Sebring, Porsche's coming to win!

The return of the King (Porsche in 2008).
King for a day (Ferrari 2006/'07).

[Dario911]

If you look the final LMES final standing for 2007 season, in GT2 class you can see clearly that Porsche RSR Felbermayer-Proton has won 3 races, while Ferrari Virgo 2 and GPC 1.
Porsche was forced to leave the lead of the race in Silverstone and Monza.
Virgo has an altogether better positionings so at the end of the challenge they've won the GT2 title with only 3 pts. over the Porsche.
That's mean something. Or not?

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Dario911

King for a day (Ferrari 2006/'07).

That is 2 years = 730 days

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I don't see a Porsche LMP1 program in the near future, and the end of the RS Spyder program as a full factory effort(and becoming a true customer program) in the near future(probably at the end of the ALMS season).

I wonder how many of these are Porsche employees( except for the drivers)? I would'nt call it a "Full Factory Effort"

Team Members – No. 6 and No. 7 DHL Penske Racing Porsche RS Spyders

General Manager John Erickson
Team Manager Jeff Swartwout
Technical Director Nigel Beresford
Porsche Race Engineer Owen Hayes
Engineer Jonathan Diuguid
Crew Chief Jon Bouslog
Team Coordinator Terry Jarrell
Electircal Steve Steinmetz
Sub-Assembly Dale Bara
Machinist Phil Ventimiglia

Position No. 6 No. 7

Driver Patrick Long/Sascha Maassen Timo Bernhard/Romain Dumas
DAG Robby Atkinson Mike Rosentel
Car Chief Vance Welker Bill Vincent
Mechanic Carlos Plaza Trevor Lacasse
Mechanic Justin Halliday Mike Ribas
Mechanic Travis Law Clay Turner
Pit Director Jon Boslog Clay Turner
Gear Box Gary Glase Don Textor
Tire Specialist Alan Zarkovich Brandon Chaffee
Outside Tire Changer Vance Welker Bill Vincent
Rear Tire Hanger Doug Snyder Trevor Lacasse
Front Tire Hanger Travis Law Mike Ribas
Inside Tire Changer Justin Halliday Don Textor
Fueler Chris Yoder Wilson Strausser
Fire Extinguisher Steve Steinmetz Fred Herbert
Parts Ben Kirkland Carl Cindric

[Dario911]

Well... if I'm not wrong, Porsche has been the king for 2190 days (1999-2000-2002-2003-2004-2005). Hmmm... there's a little difference, don't you think?!

[F360]

Originally Posted by Dario911

Well... if I'm not wrong, Porsche has been :

Its Ferrari time !

[arakis]

I still think that the tire issue is becouse of the more weight and the backengine of the porsche, I mean I read on a few interviews that the porsche was eating tires like mad both michelins and pirellis, becouse of the concept they went with this year, I seem to remember last year at sebring they never doble stinted while ferrari even triple stinted their tires.

give a break to pirelli porsche is using the gt1 tires right, but the gt1 tires were also developed for 1100 kg not the 1215 of the porsche, and u must admit theat even if porsche had 1100 kg it would still use up tires faster then ferrari becouse of the weightbalance. all that weight on the back wheils. Pirelli or michelin wont built tires just to suit one car that would be unfair toward ferrari. Porsche should have paid more atension to suspension geometry and set up on the race to avid tire failiure.

[Dario911]

Flying Lizard in its reply to my mails affirmed they've never had troubles with Michelin tyres, an Michelin has worked very much to offer better tyres for the 2008 season. In the first part of Italian GT Challenge, Pirelli furnished to Porsche the right tyres, and the car was very competitive, fighting against Ferraris in avery race, for the first place.
But from the middle of the season things are changed. Strange, because tha car was the same in confront of the first part of the season...
Flying Lizard, in their reply to my mails, was satisfied fo Michelen tyres performances, but it was not the same for Pirelli teams! There's an answer to thi point!
Try to contact them and ask something about this. They will gently answer to all your answers! At Flying Lizards are very gentleman!

F360, don't worry. The king's coming...

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

I wonder how many of these are Porsche employees( except for the drivers)? I would'nt call it a "Full Factory Effort"

Team Members – No. 6 and No. 7 DHL Penske Racing Porsche RS Spyders

General Manager John Erickson
Team Manager Jeff Swartwout
Technical Director Nigel Beresford
Porsche Race Engineer Owen Hayes
Engineer Jonathan Diuguid
Crew Chief Jon Bouslog
Team Coordinator Terry Jarrell
Electircal Steve Steinmetz
Sub-Assembly Dale Bara
Machinist Phil Ventimiglia

Position No. 6 No. 7

Driver Patrick Long/Sascha Maassen Timo Bernhard/Romain Dumas
DAG Robby Atkinson Mike Rosentel
Car Chief Vance Welker Bill Vincent
Mechanic Carlos Plaza Trevor Lacasse
Mechanic Justin Halliday Mike Ribas
Mechanic Travis Law Clay Turner
Pit Director Jon Boslog Clay Turner
Gear Box Gary Glase Don Textor
Tire Specialist Alan Zarkovich Brandon Chaffee
Outside Tire Changer Vance Welker Bill Vincent
Rear Tire Hanger Doug Snyder Trevor Lacasse
Front Tire Hanger Travis Law Mike Ribas
Inside Tire Changer Justin Halliday Don Textor
Fueler Chris Yoder Wilson Strausser
Fire Extinguisher Steve Steinmetz Fred Herbert
Parts Ben Kirkland Carl Cindric

Trace the money path-it seems that Penske gets more factory backing than Dyson does, obviously.

And if that doesn't work, look at IMSA's Privateers' Cup in LMP2. Dyson is elegiable for race to race prize money, and a big chunk of the point fund money. Penske doesn't directly benefit from race to race prize money, and gets a smaller potion of the point fund money.

Thus, Dyson is considered by IMSA to be a privateer team, and Penske is dubbed a factory team by IMSA. The same goes for Penske vs the Acura teams, and for Joest vs Champion from '01-'03.

[Spyderman]

It is common knowledge that Penske were the first to have access to new developments (parts and so on) .
I'm not so sure about direct funding.
It is a Semi-works effort.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

It is common knowledge that Penske were the first to have access to new developments (parts and so on) .
I'm not so sure about direct funding.
It is a Semi-works effort.

Correct Penske does not get direct funding. Penke purchased their two Spyders, but get all spare parts and engine rebuilds done by Porsche.

Porsche is a bit upset that the engine rebuids are much shorter time span then expeted.

[chernaudi]

But IMSA still classifys Penske as a factory team, so why shouldn't they be considered as such?

Champion was a semi-factory team in the ALMS in the R8 days, but IMSA still classified them as privateers. What's the difference.

[cmk]

Do drivers have something to do with it? Penske's 4 drivers are on the Porsche payroll, something which is a major difference from Dyson. In the year that Joest and Champion ran an R8 each, Joest had pilots on the factory payroll (Biela/Werner) and Champion ran pilots they hired and paid themselves. I think that the next year, when they ran as ASNA, they were a factory team.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

But IMSA still classifys Penske as a factory team, so why shouldn't they be considered as such?

Champion was a semi-factory team in the ALMS in the R8 days, but IMSA still classified them as privateers. What's the difference.

Well lets not get into semantics here.
Yes IMSA/ACO does classify it a "factory" team, but that is not what is usually the significance/implication of the usage of the term when used by the . ...."non-Porsche fans" (an apropriate politically correct term) on this forum.
Also - just because IMSA/ACO "classifies" them a a factory team, it doesn't necessarily mean they are a "full factory effort".

[Spyderman]

Furthermore, you will notice that the ALMs has inducted into the Sebring Sports Car Racing Hall of Fame, PENSKE and Audi (amongst others) , and not PORSCHE and Audi , admitting that Roger Penske is in fact the team owner.

[SebringMG]

No but it is all down to the wording...i have seen an article where it was stated that Penske got the developments to test before the parts became available for sale to other teams....that is not a privateer team. Semi-works imo along the same lines as the Acura cars.

[Spyderman]

Just as I have been saying all along.

[The Badger]

New pics of the 997 up at end-info , but I cant get them to open . *%ß+##*

Sounds like Herr.Brielga has something to worry about then ..... gotta think up some new ingrediants for your Ju-Ju Brielga , ha !!!

Can someone please post'em here ?

They are also at www.project-lemans.de/

And its as I thought ..... its beautiful !!!

[Antho]

There are more pics on Endurance-Info

[Spyderman]

Good find Guys!

[gwyllion]

Externally not a lot changed. Only front bumper.

The big changes are weight saving (allowing for more ballast at front and thus better weight distribution), improved gearbox and more suspension setup possibilities.

35 units have been ordered.