Interesting Item on New Chassis in Indy Star (Merged)

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by miatanut

I would agree the 3 years is malarkey, but if you are going to turn the conventional understanding of chassis dynamics on its head, it's going to take longer than normal to develop the car.

Except they don't have 3 years...

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

So Delta has set up their own organization, with eight or ten owners invested (according to Chip), and a prototype under development for August.

To johnson: Pieces? Hard to say who will feel like that's all they are left with. But there are only two groups positioned to pick them up, or watch them crumble. Delta and IICS. And no sign of any collaborative effort yet between the two.

Let's say as a hypothetical that the owners believe in this radical car the delta wing. And they have gone all in, investing sums of money to make it happen.

If that is the case it certainly doesn't bode well if the irl chooses to do dallara or lola or something. What do the owners do then?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Start their own series?

[JagtechOhio]

That's the whole point Star, and it's way past hypothetical. Investment from other Delta charter members has not been large yet, but Gannasi has stated there are 8-10 owners on board. From memory, I can tell you for sure that is Penske, Gannasi, Barnes, Andretti, George, Wiggins, Kalkhoven, and Reinbold. Most of the paddock.

Go to Deltawingracing.com, read about the management team. It's the foundation for a completely autonomous organization, and they are now researching suppliers to begin prototype construction.They have Firestone on board, who presented the concept model in Chicago on their stage.

They are all set to cut and run if they want to.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Félix

(http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no222.html)

And Part II:
http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no223.html

The best information I've seen, by far, on the proposal. Not surprising, given the source.

Looks like Penske is instrumental in adding a year to the schedule.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by miatanut

And Part II:
http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no223.html

The best information I've seen, by far, on the proposal. Not surprising, given the source.

Looks like Penske is instrumental in adding a year to the schedule.

I found the Kirby interviews with Bowlby interesting, but I felt Bowlby had too many pat answers for such a radical car. I found that a bit unnerving he seemed way to sure of himself and the car. Just my take on it.

[climb]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I found the Kirby interviews with Bowlby interesting, but I felt Bowlby had too many pat answers for such a radical car. I found that a bit unnerving he seemed way to sure of himself and the car. Just my take on it.

For once climb agrees with ms

[climb]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

That's the whole point Star, and it's way past hypothetical. Investment from other Delta charter members has not been large yet, but Gannasi has stated there are 8-10 owners on board. From memory, I can tell you for sure that is Penske, Gannasi, Barnes, Andretti, George, Wiggins, Kalkhoven, and Reinbold. Most of the paddock.

Go to Deltawingracing.com, read about the management team. It's the foundation for a completely autonomous organization, and they are now researching suppliers to begin prototype construction.They have Firestone on board, who presented the concept model in Chicago on their stage.

They are all set to cut and run if they want to.

climb thinks so many owners won't get along for a long time; once operations start, many "what the heck are they doing with my money!" will be said and heard.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I found the Kirby interviews with Bowlby interesting, but I felt Bowlby had too many pat answers for such a radical car. I found that a bit unnerving he seemed way to sure of himself and the car. Just my take on it.

Or maybe he's an experienced racing car designer who has spent months working through the issues on a radical new approach? I thought the quote from the Swift designer (elsewhere) that Bowlby was onto something was telling. His basic defense of the Swift proposals was 'well, the fans on the boards like the looks of ours better.'

Originally Posted by climb

climb thinks so many owners won't get along for a long time; once operations start, many "what the heck are they doing with my money!" will be said and heard.

I think they have seen over the last 30 years what happens when they stick together and what happens when they go separate ways, which is the reason they are trying to set up this relatively independent technical review body. All the stuff they are talking about on that side is stuff that has been proposed by others over the years on how to have technically competitive racing but not break the bank.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

That's the whole point Star, and it's way past hypothetical. Investment from other Delta charter members has not been large yet, but Gannasi has stated there are 8-10 owners on board. From memory, I can tell you for sure that is Penske, Gannasi, Barnes, Andretti, George, Wiggins, Kalkhoven, and Reinbold. Most of the paddock.

Go to Deltawingracing.com, read about the management team. It's the foundation for a completely autonomous organization, and they are now researching suppliers to begin prototype construction.They have Firestone on board, who presented the concept model in Chicago on their stage.

They are all set to cut and run if they want to.

JagTechOhio and I both said this about 3-4 pages ago in this thread...they day that they unveiled it, in fact...

Curt Cavin at the Indy Star also thinks that this is a distinct possibility as well and has said so more than once in his blog...

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by miatanut

All the stuff they are talking about on that side is stuff that has been proposed by others over the years on how to have technically competitive racing but not break the bank.

Maybe they should have a chat with some of the members of F.O.T.A., to find out how F.O.T.A. and the FIA managed to come to an agreement over racing costs.

[Purist]

Has FOTA really brought the costs down that much? I sincerely doubt it. You can bet that there are loopholes in the various agreements big enough to fly and Antinov through them. Ferrari, McLaren/Mercedes, and Red Bull are not going to willingly give up much advantage; that's just common sense.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Obviuosly not but a budget cap has been set, which some think might hinder the new teams like Virgin as they have had to do everything from scratch.

[JagtechOhio]

Cost containment is another of Delta's talking points that doesn't hold up to scrutiny: they have shifted their arguments away from it, as is evident in the most recent Kirby article.

Providing a list of alternate engine manufacturers as Partel did, and then marrying yourself to the $150K ARE engine as Bowlby has done, is a bit of a dichotomy.

That's because the strict design criteria limits modification, it does not permit the promised proliferation of it. And yes, it is a real vehicle.

And it will be built, after the date IICS has promised to announce their selection of new chassis specifications. And the ownership who comprises most of the paddock are both investors and supporters.

Tim, right on target. That's why I was glad to hear Mr. Penske finally make a public comment, and found it noteworthy that he is already looking for some wiggle room in his position of support.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

JagTechOhio and I both said this about 3-4 pages ago in this thread...they day that they unveiled it, in fact...

Curt Cavin at the Indy Star also thinks that this is a distinct possibility as well and has said so more than once in his blog...

But what about the Speedway?

I thought the indy speedway was the center of the universe and the whole reason for all this mess to begin with? If the owners walk off then what?

Of course rumors have persisted since I first heard them in 2008 that the speedway was for sale for the right price.

[JagtechOhio]

If I am Belskus, or sitting on the board right now, I am watching the Delta Owners very carefully. The minute I see firm indications that they are prepared to operate as an autonomous group, I offer to sell them the IICS.

The Series has some value, with maybe $20M annual contracts in hand. Negotiate a TV/ gate reciepts split for the 500 as a condition of the sale.

Keep the IMS, be content with your role as promoter and event host for the two of the biggest races in the U.S., and unencumber yourself of the liabilities and uncertain future of the IICS.

No reason to sell the Speedway.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

If I am Belskus, or sitting on the board right now, I am watching the Delta Owners very carefully. The minute I see firm indications that they are prepared to operate as an autonomous group, I offer to sell them the IICS.

The Series has some value, with maybe $20M annual contracts in hand. Negotiate a TV/ gate reciepts split for the 500 as a condition of the sale.

Keep the IMS, be content with your role as promoter and event host for the two of the biggest races in the U.S., and unencumber yourself of the liabilities and uncertain future of the IICS.

No reason to sell the Speedway.

So then we are right back to where we started 20 years ago. Except it is impoverished now rather than a booming business.

Can someone enlighten me what the whole past 2 decades was all about because I am one lost and confused individual?

[JagtechOhio]

As far as tangible results, the last 20 years wasn't about much at all.

Danica got rich, a few owners and car builders likely did too, and many lost millions. The Speedway got a new row of garages and a road course addition they don't use.

I'm just glad I wasn't watching it, I'd have gone completely mad years ago.

It's been bad enough watching the last six months. But that's why I came to the conclusion that the history was irrelevant, because it is. It doesn't matter what lunacy went on to create this mess, only what must be done to salvage it.

And there are no relevant lessons to be learned from the past, other than that the leadership of failure will produce the expected results. It doesn't take a cliche for me to realize that this has been, and as of today still is, the whole ball of wax.

The problem for me is, I don't know anything about big power or big money. So events are scripted, and on the surface it looks like mistakes being made by idiots.

But maybe one guy, or ten guys, are squeezing all the juice out exactly the way they want. And the rest of us, who hope they will provide good races to watch, or try to offer suggestions to any of the problems, or just wonder what in the hell is going on...the rest of us are the idiots.

If that doesn't apply to any of you, my apologies. Count me down as one, at least it only took me six months to figure it out.

[Juarez Jed]

No one can or will ever make sense of the last 20 years that's for sure. I'm sure what has transpired wasn't envisioned or wished for by any of the participants.
But the Speedway doesn't try and run Moto GP or Nascar so I suppose it makes sense after all that has happened to leave the category management to the team owners who have the most invested in it from a financial and personal viewpoint.
The Speedway will still be needed by this breakaway group if they want their series to have any credibility. The Michigan 500 never did hold the same level of gravitas in the month of May did it ? Maybe the gate receipts deal is the way to go. It is guaranteed money in the bank without all the hassle.
As much as people bag the Speedway and the IRL era, even Champcar tragics would have to acknowledge that the premier US open wheel series, be it for Deltawings or Dallaras, must have the Indy 500 as its centerpiece.
Perhaps letting this new owners group have the job of organising the rest of the series is the way to go ?

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Juarez Jed

The Speedway will still be needed by this breakaway group if they want their series to have any credibility. The Michigan 500 never did hold the same level of gravitas in the month of May did it ? Maybe the gate receipts deal is the way to go. It is guaranteed money in the bank without all the hassle.

Yes.

Originally Posted by Juarez Jed

Perhaps letting this new owners group have the job of organising the rest of the series is the way to go ?

Sadly, that's exactly what we had before all this.

[JagtechOhio]

Agreed Jed, the 500 doesn't draw too well without racecars, and a premier American series without the 500 as its centerpiece will fail.

If the owners are ready to push the issue, sell out to them and collect the money when they race at your track. Just like the two examples you gave.

[climb]

Originally Posted by miatanut

....
I think they have seen over the last 30 years what happens when they stick together and what happens when they go separate ways, which is the reason they are trying to set up this relatively independent technical review body. All the stuff they are talking about on that side is stuff that has been proposed by others over the years on how to have technically competitive racing but not break the bank.

Joint ventures exist ever since the watermelon, and they generally fail in the short/mid term, due to quarrels about the equilibrium investements/return of each founder.
Why shoudl it be different?

You say it's an autonomous unit, but this is pure theory as long as it lives on founders money; it's money who decides wheteher you're autonomous, not abstract founding principles

[mz2k]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I found the Kirby interviews with Bowlby interesting, but I felt Bowlby had too many pat answers for such a radical car. I found that a bit unnerving he seemed way to sure of himself and the car. Just my take on it.

With so much uncertainty surrounding the IRL these days, I actually found it refreshing. I would be skeptical if he didn't have such sure answers- after all, they are going for a major change.

Now, do I like the look of the car more than Swift's proposal? No, absolutely not.

But the Delta Wing concept is the best overall proposal IMO, because what the sport of Indy Car needs is a true game changer.

[mz2k]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

So then we are right back to where we started 20 years ago. Except it is impoverished now rather than a booming business.

Can someone enlighten me what the whole past 2 decades was all about because I am one lost and confused individual?

The last 20 years was about a lot of money thrown about by sponsors and manufacturers and a feeding frenzy by many people who were in it for themselves. It was about one man's craving for power and control.

Then the sponsors and manufacturers left and the money disappeared...

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

But what about the Speedway?

I thought the indy speedway was the center of the universe and the whole reason for all this mess to begin with? If the owners walk off then what?

Of course rumors have persisted since I first heard them in 2008 that the speedway was for sale for the right price.

Didn't the Speedway host the 500 as a stand-alone event when CART was the lone OW entity before the split occurred?

Mari Hulman George isn't going to sell IMS...The daughters might...they don't seem to give a damn, but Mari won't sell it.

TG wanted a say in OW and a seat on the CART Board...They said no...he chose to split OW...That's over..It is the past

Other rumors also have said that Bernie Eccelstone bought the infield from IMS as well during the F1 years at the Speedway...Yeah, Sure He did...That's what Bernie did all right...That's why there is still a USGP on the F1 schedule

From the looks of it, no one won as a result of the split...

Carry the grudge as long as you wish...won't change history...

Time to move on...