Sir Lewis Hamilton is the GOAT

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by john ruston

I was pointing out the Mercedes team of 2010 were not a fledgling outfit.
It was a ready made gang and you could consider that they should have had more success early on.

I don't feel it works as simple as that.
Whenever there is a change in the hierarchy, it takes time for those changes to filter down to the results at the coal face.
Sometimes, immediate changes cause quick results, sometimes it takes longer.

If it is just about having a fully developed team, then surely it didn't need the change from Honda to Brawn for results to arrive.
When Mercedes took over running the team, it may have been the majority of personnel were the same as the Honda and Brawn days, but turning the team into one that delivers Mercedes' outputs was a process that took time.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by john ruston

I was pointing out the Mercedes team of 2010 were not a fledgling outfit.
It was a ready made gang and you could consider that they should have had more success early on.
This raises the point that it wasn’t until Lewis joined they became successful.
That should guarantee that this thread carries on for another page!

Disregarding the change in team name and ownership, 2010 was only their second season and there were two new drivers in Rosberg and Schumacher, as both Barrichello and Button had left. Hamilton wasn't signed until 2013, with Ross Brawn standing down at the end of the year. They were also runners up in the WCC in 2013, their best performance so far.

[Alan52]

Also during 2009 they laid off 40% of their staff from every technical department.This greatly affected development of the 2010 car as they had to give full priority to the 2009 championship.
They became a super team when they were able to throw incredible resources at hybrid engine development.

[S griffin]

The Merc buyout of Brawn was the only way the team was going to continue. But as you say it unfortunately was too late to do anything about the 2010 car, as that had been built on a limited budget.

[hoffman66]

My input

Not the greatest as he has had far more races in a season to achieve wins records etc, so that comparison is totally unhinged.

Titles fair enough, bit very little opposition, even Vettel had some, Schuey had little when he dominated but more than Lewis has had.

Also did chuff all in a poor McLaren and was beaten by Rosberg to a title, albeit closely.

This for me say no GOAT, as no-one really got anywhere near Clark, Stewart, Fangio et al in similar cars and they neaqrly always trounced their team mates.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by hoffman66

My input

Not the greatest as he has had far more races in a season to achieve wins records etc, so that comparison is totally unhinged.

Titles fair enough, bit very little opposition, even Vettel had some, Schuey had little when he dominated but more than Lewis has had.

Also did chuff all in a poor McLaren and was beaten by Rosberg to a title, albeit closely.

This for me say no GOAT, as no-one really got anywhere near Clark, Stewart, Fangio et al in similar cars and they neaqrly always trounced their team mates.

I'm not even going near this one......

[Akrapovic]

Lewis did nothing in that McLaren did he. Didn't beat Fernando. Didn't take a title. Chuff all. Disgrace. He hasn't "nearly always trounced his team mates" enough, frankly. Should've left F1 at that point tbh.

[Anyopenroad]

I love the fact that both winning in a good car and not winning win in a bad one are held against a driver.

[gert]

Carlos Sainz's take on it:


Many - including Max Verstappen - suggest that most of the current grid could probably win races with Mercedes. But, as Carlos Sainz Jr quite rightly points out, there are very few drivers who would be able to take on and beat Hamilton if they did have that car underneath them.

"I agree with Max that 90% of the grid would win races with the Mercedes, would get the pole positions with a Mercedes," said Sainz. "But I also tell you that if you put that half of the grid against Hamilton at Mercedes, 90% would not beat Hamilton at Mercedes.

"As team-mates, with that car, very few people would be able to beat Hamilton during a 20-race season. But if you remove Hamilton off the grid, any of the current F1 drivers would win with the Mercedes. That describes a lot what happens with current F1. But also that Hamilton, even if he has the best car, is one of the best or the best for a long time."


https://www.autosport.com/f1/feature...el-his-critics

[Aysedasi]

I think Carlos knows what most people know but are probably afraid/reluctant/to say......

[Peter Mallett]

Actually he probably said "Como compañeros de equipo, con ese coche, muy pocas personas podrÃ*an vencer a Hamilton durante una temporada de 20 carreras. Pero si eliminas a Hamilton de la parrilla, cualquiera de los pilotos de F1 actuales ganarÃ*a con el Mercedes. Eso describe un Mucho de lo que sucede con la F1 actual. Pero también que Hamilton, incluso si tiene el mejor coche, es uno de los mejores o el mejor durante mucho tiempo " and yes I'd be afraid to try that.

[Aysedasi]

So Perry Como would have won in a Mercedes then........

[Peter Mallett]

Volare

[Akrapovic]

https://royalcentral.co.uk/interests...driver-152801/

Just gonna pull the pin on this wee hand grenade here.

[john ruston]

Well done!
Probably pays more tax in UK than 99% of population.
How many previous world champions lived in UK
Not Saint Jackie, Nige,Damon,Jim etc
Only Surtees seemed to have continued to live in UK.
He’s done more than any of above
Give him title before bullshit on ‘The Crown’ undermines the whole thing!
Just want to make sure grenade exploded

[Peter Mallett]

Lol, yes he's done enough to be recognized.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Well done!
Probably pays more tax in UK than 99% of population.
How many previous world champions lived in UK
Not Saint Jackie, Nige,Damon,Jim etc
Only Surtees seemed to have continued to live in UK.
He’s done more than any of above
Give him title before bullshit on ‘The Crown’ undermines the whole thing!
Just want to make sure grenade exploded

I thought Hamilton lived in Monte Carlo?

[john ruston]

Just because he lives in Monte Carlo doesn't preclude him from paying UK taxes on monies earned in UK.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Just because he lives in Monte Carlo doesn't preclude him from paying UK taxes on monies earned in UK.

I never said it did.

[john ruston]

So what was your point or just stating a fact?
Probably spends majority of his time in States.
He’s the only British Sportsman that is worlds best at this time
We have had very few in the past fifty years.
In motorised sport Duke Hailwood Surtees Clark,Stewart.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by john ruston

So what was your point or just stating a fact?
Probably spends majority of his time in States.
He’s the only British Sportsman that is worlds best at this time
We have had very few in the past fifty years.
In motorised sport Duke Hailwood Surtees Clark,Stewart.

You said: "How many previous world champions lived in UK", so I questioned that, as I thought Hamilton lived in Monte Carlo not the UK.

[Akrapovic]

I thought John was pointing out that although Lewis does not live in the UK, most have not. But I may have picked that up wrong.

[john ruston]

That’s what I was trying to say!
They all lived outside the UK as British non Dom’s and all got some sort of honour so that should not stop LH getting a knighthood .

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by gert

Carlos Sainz's take on it:


Many - including Max Verstappen - suggest that most of the current grid could probably win races with Mercedes. But, as Carlos Sainz Jr quite rightly points out, there are very few drivers who would be able to take on and beat Hamilton if they did have that car underneath them.

"I agree with Max that 90% of the grid would win races with the Mercedes, would get the pole positions with a Mercedes," said Sainz. "But I also tell you that if you put that half of the grid against Hamilton at Mercedes, 90% would not beat Hamilton at Mercedes.

"As team-mates, with that car, very few people would be able to beat Hamilton during a 20-race season. But if you remove Hamilton off the grid, any of the current F1 drivers would win with the Mercedes. That describes a lot what happens with current F1. But also that Hamilton, even if he has the best car, is one of the best or the best for a long time."


https://www.autosport.com/f1/feature...el-his-critics

Makes me wonder who the two he thinks could beat him in the same car is..

[S griffin]

When you've got the best car everything is easy, but you still have to beat your team mate and even if it has been a complete walkover for Merc this year, you have to give credit for the work Lewis, Valterri and the whole team have done to make this happen. But personally I think Bottas should have done better and could have been one to get one over Hamilton, really he should dug deeper and got a big psychological boost by keeping on working hard. But it just wasn't to be