IMSA USCC in 2016 and 2017

[Coach Ep]

And to refresh our minds:

http://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/st...lmp2-for-2017/

The article makes it sound like the car is WSC bound (but a lot might have changed since the announcement back in May):

It is the first team to officially confirm plans to compete in the Prototype class next year,

[chernaudi]

One cynical question I have to ask is why does IMSA insist on a $1 million dollar fee for a manufacturer on top of what they get from team entry fees? I'm asking because no other series I can name does that to my knowledge. Not the WEC/LM24, PWC, Trans Am, Indy Car, even NASCAR or F1. Is it IMSA trying to make a money grab from carmakers? Or is it to try force a de facto limit on makes in the series, especially GTD (and maybe DPI?) in that if a carmaker wants to race, they have to pay up?

In my opinion, that sort of kills true privateers in GTD in that most of the teams end up being sort of factory supported. Only way a true privateer can race in GTD (at least with a car that's not of an "approved" make) is if they pay the entry fee out of their own pocket, like what Keeting did the past couple of years with the Viper, and since he's gone to LMP2/DPI, we can guess he got tired of that as well as lack of support from Chrysler on the Viper.

Or if the entry fee is inclusive of DPI, then the only way to get around that is pay out of one's own pocket, or just run a Gibson powered ACO spec LMP2.

In general, be it technical regs (WEC) or sporting regs (IMSA), some series are seemingly killing a bit of the variety that was appealing in sportscar racing about 10-15 years ago, or even 5 years ago for that matter.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

One cynical question I have to ask is why does IMSA insist on a $1 million dollar fee for a manufacturer on top of what they get from team entry fees? I'm asking because no other series I can name does that to my knowledge. Not the WEC/LM24, PWC, Trans Am, Indy Car, even NASCAR or F1.

WEC does, NASCAR does, Indy Car does....

http://www.fiawec.com/presentation/ourpartners.html "Official Manufacturers"
http://www.nascar.com/en_us/sponsors.html

It just doesn't quite come out in public the same way.

[chernaudi]

Yet the difference is that none of those sanctioning bodies (aside from maybe Indy Car) are kicking out/keeping out manufacturers for not paying what's supposed to be an advertising fee. Yes, even in IMSA, payment of the fee is voluntary, just like in the WEC, NASCAR and Indy Car. But there's nothing stopping anyone from running a Dodge in NASCAR aside from outdated homologation requirements (no Gen 6 Dodge bodies), and notice that with the WEC that Ferrari/FCA isn't an official partner. But they're allowed to race their cars and get drivers, teams and manufacturers points in both GTE classes.

The big deal as I see it is that IMSA is keeping people out who don't want to pay the "advertising" fee. A better solution IMO would be allow anyone to race what they want as long as it suits the technical regs, but don't let them score manufacturers points or related bonuses.

[Mike Hedlund]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

And let's hope this serves as an incentive for other AM drivers to step up to the Prototype class!

I'd be happy to step up if you could just send me $3M by November 2016. PM me for bank details.

-mike

[Mike Hedlund]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

One cynical question I have to ask is why does IMSA insist on a $1 million dollar fee for a manufacturer on top of what they get from team entry fees?

That's what pays for the TV/broadcast coverage of the races. And if that's the case, let's say you're Audi and just wrote a check to IMSA for $1M. Then KIA shows up at Daytona wanting to race in GTD and take advantage of the TV coverage that you helped pay for, without contributing themselves. Would you be ok with that?

I think it's stupid to have any of the manufactures in a ProAm class pay those fees, but once you make one manufacturer do it, you put yourself into a corner.

-mike

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Yet the difference is that none of those sanctioning bodies (aside from maybe Indy Car) are kicking out/keeping out manufacturers for not paying what's supposed to be an advertising fee. Yes, even in IMSA, payment of the fee is voluntary, just like in the WEC, NASCAR and Indy Car. But there's nothing stopping anyone from running a Dodge in NASCAR aside from outdated homologation requirements (no Gen 6 Dodge bodies), and notice that with the WEC that Ferrari/FCA isn't an official partner. But they're allowed to race their cars and get drivers, teams and manufacturers points in both GTE classes.

The big deal as I see it is that IMSA is keeping people out who don't want to pay the "advertising" fee. A better solution IMO would be allow anyone to race what they want as long as it suits the technical regs, but don't let them score manufacturers points or related bonuses.

Ferrari is an "Official Manufacturer". As is Toyota. Those didn't come free.... for WEC... there is a reason, perhaps unspoken. Sure, if you want to upgrade from the minimum cost, feel free... and yet...

As far as NASCAR... well, they make big money, and yet the manufacturers participating are all sponsors. I'd like to see someone get homologated, and be competitive without kicking up that fee. Some privateer with an old hopeless car... they might let them in...

..and Mike explains well why it is a big deal.

I raised my eyebrows when I saw this 1mil cost... but, if a privateer wants to race that bad... they will end up getting a car that can race there.

[chernaudi]

It's stupid, but I guess that once IMSA started, they can't stop, not unless they can find somewhere else to try and draw revenue. And granted, what exactly IMSA does with said revenue is up in the air and I doubt that very many of us know what they really do with it. Only way we'll find out is if the US Government or the State Government of Georgia or Florida wants to check their books. All we can do is hope that it's being used for something productive.

Such cynicism aside, I still think that a better way of handling this is that if you don't pay, you can still race, but you won't get any manufacturers points, or any money or financial or series bonuses that you'd get if the carmaker or the team itself paid the fee. That's what the FIA did with Lancia in 1982 when they had a Group 6 prototype to race that they wanted to run in the WSC that year against Group C cars. Thus--quite likely though Lancia's connections with Ferrari and Fiat at the time with their race program--Lancia was allowed to race the LC1, but Lancia wasn't classified in the manufacturers' table, though their drivers did score drivers' points when their cars did finish races.

Chevrolet/GM isn't on the WEC's manufacturer partner's list--even Toyota is and we know how loathe TMC has been to increasing TMG's budget until this year, and it's still a ton smaller than what Audi and Porsche are able to work with. But a Corvette runs in GTE-Am. And that team is allowed to score manufacturers points in their respective class.

I do find IMSA's approach to be cynical, namely in that I don't know what benefit the teams themselves are getting from their aligned carmaker paying that $1 million dowry to the series.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I do find IMSA's approach to be cynical, namely in that I don't know what benefit the teams themselves are getting from their aligned carmaker paying that $1 million dowry to the series.

Hmm, how about an endurance Sports Car series in which to run?!

All this minutiae nit picking at IMSA's model, when it occurs (in some form) in all of the major series, period.

So far 2016 is extremely better than the max lame duck that some here predicted!

2017 looks to be the beginning of something that could be well built upon. DPis in testing, R/M Mk. 30 already sold to Keating, more GT3 on the way....





L.P.

[jjvincent]

It takes money to run these races. Here's what has changed:

1. Car count. When the count goes down so does the money coming in. It does not cost more to put on an event for 50 cars as opposed to 250 cars. Sanctioning bodies have gone to great measures to increase car count by creating instant success classes (i.e. GT3, GT4 and TCR), creating driver rankings so everyone gets a trophy. It's to the point you do whatever it takes to get that entry fee up front (even requiring teams to pay way in advance with little or no refund).

2. No more sponsors outside the automotive industry. You have to face it, you are limited to just that industry. Regular real world companies refuse to sponsor anything in sportscar racing because the numbers when it comes to viewership and people paying actual cash to come to a race is really low. There have been some watch manufacturers of ones that I doubt any of us would ever buy (Rolex, Tudor, BRM, etc...) because we all have a iWatch or a $150 Garmin. These other watches are just jewelry, not timepieces. Then you get ones like WT. It didn't take a genius how that came about and now we see the repercussions from it. You have to sleep with everyone no matter how you get that money.

3. Sharing track events. PWC doesn't run with Indycar because they want to, it's because they have to. Same for when IMSA runs those street races with Indycar. Everyone is forced to work together even though the personalities don't want to. Share the cost makes for an event even though they run at times nobody is there to see them.

4. Tracks paying sanction fees is going down or they get paid to open up that weekend (most tracks are booked solid). I seriously doubt that PWC gets paid to do CoTA when a manufacturer will pay good money to do an arrive and drive or new product release. I'm starting to doubt that the WEC/IMSA weekend is not a pay out of pocket for those two organizations just because they are forced to do it because of a few manufacturers dictate that they do. All you have to do is go to one of those events and there's a reason why the services for the ticket paying public is non existent. Many tracks refuse to do a PWC or IMSA event because they lose money at it. Thus you always wonder why a track is dropped for no reason.

5. There's competition. Just go to a historic or car club day at a track. They pay and get plenty of competitors that are the who's who of Pro Sportscar racing from just a few years. All of those rich older guys that we all loved because they were funding these programs, now spend it elsewhere. 20 years ago it was starting to come around and 30 years ago, you were severely limited to where you could get your kicks. This is why Pro Sportscar racing is becoming spec, BoP and driver rankings. They know that they have to do whatever it takes (thus throwing out everything they have stood for since creation).

The business has changed and I don't see it getting any better for any Pro Series' out there (this even happens in drag and dirt track racing). It's to the point as for them to bring money in, you force the manufacturers to pay for the privilege to compete. When you create classes like GT3, GT4 and TCR, this is a great way to really force manufacturers to pay to sell cars and parts. I fully expect that soon this pay to play will be required for GT4 and TCR.

[chernaudi]

It's all about what you get if you pay. We know that in the WEC Audi and Porsche are forking out millions of dollars in endorsement deals for the series. What are they getting in return? Same question can be asked of IMSA for individual teams, since they're all "technically" privateer teams.

What do the teams get when a carmaker pays the advertising fee? Unless they're getting a lot of factory support, I do have to question what the individual teams are getting out of it. Probably about as much as the LMP2 teams are getting out of the WEC, as well as what few "privateer" teams in the GT classes in the WEC are getting.

All of this is either driven by the sanctioning bodies trying to get something worthwhile out of what otherwise would be a money-losing enterprise (as most motorsports are, certainly without corporate sponsorship), or the manufacturers throwing their weight and money around, which would happen without a mandatory fee. The latter of which can be seen as a corporate power trip/flaunting by the factory teams.

And of course, even when a series is healthy, they're not going to spend anymore money than they feel they have to. It's the Chip Ganassi model--race using other people's money that you've been able to con into funding most of your effort.

Of course, lack of outside sponsorship outside of the automotive industry is why Audi have basically sponsored themselves in racing since 2006, and why Porsche and Toyota now by and large do the same in the WEC. Unless it's NASCAR or F1, non-automotive sponsors won't bite. And even then, it was often largely tobacco (such advertising is now illegal in most of the world) and booze (also illegal in several parts of the world).

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Ferrari is an "Official Manufacturer". As is Toyota. Those didn't come free.... for WEC...

The difference is that WEC only charges a manufacturer additional fees to the entry fees if they want to be called an official manufacturer. IMSA requries ALL manufacturers to pay the extra fee no matter what, and they've done none of the thigns they claim the money is for..

I raised my eyebrows when I saw this 1mil cost...

Some have claimed the fee is THREE million, but most are claiming one. I'll believe the majority on this one.

but, if a privateer wants to race that bad... they will end up getting a car that can race there.

The privateers don't have to pay the fee unless the manufacturer chooses not to play ball. Ben Keating was the only privateer shelling out that fee to keep his car going, and we now know he won't be doing that next year.

[chernaudi]

And we live in a capitalist society in most countries that host motor racing. And motor sport lives and dies on capitalism. But it's a two way street usually. If the series has what a manufacturer wants, they'll be willing to pay for it. Also, if a series wants manufacturer money, they know that they have to "give" something in exchange for money.

That's how it works. If someone wants goods or services, you'll have to pay for them. If you want people's money, you have to offer something that they want. There's trade off in the way that IMSA's doing it, and the way that everyone else is doing it.

The irony in all of this is that Audi and Porsche are now shelling out millions of dollars to the ACO and FIA for the WEC, yet they killed their prototype classes in the ALMS after they got tired of shelling out millions of dollars to IMSA and being dissatisfied with what they were getting for their investments. And yet the WEC has quite a few of the same problems that the ALMS, GA, and WTSC have, the biggest is penetration into a mainstream motorsport audience, just to name one.

[jjvincent]

You have to remember this, racing has changed. You will never see another Bob Tullius, Al Holbert or Don Devendorf again. That's because they were in an era where hard work and innovation got them to get those factory deals and be successful. They took their passion, and turned it into a business. Today, it's only just writing a check. No hard work needed. If success doesn't come instant, you stop writing a check and point the finger at the sanctioning body. If Al Holbert had that attitude, he'd just own a few car dealers in PA and that would be it. Don Devendorf would have retired from working for a defense contractor. Bob Tullius would have got downsized and took some other job.

For today we are told, it's that people don't know how to build racecars. It's too complex. It takes too long to be successful. That's what all new rich guys are being told by sanctioning bodies. If I buy any new GT3 car, I will be successful right off the bat. Even if I am a bad driver, I'll be successful because we have a class for bad drivers like me. I don't even have to get any better because there's no reason too. The BoP and my complaining that the driver rankings are unfair will take care of that. Then if I can find that class with 3 or 4 cars with equally bad drivers like me, I'm successful. You as a fan will pay to watch me win races where I look pathetic. I don't care because you love me because I spend money on that fancy looking car. When I am not successful, it's the BoP and I will quit. Racing has become too expensive vs the success I was told I was going to have.

We would have never had a Nissan GTP car if that attitude was around in the 80's. Remember the amount of times that thing was destroyed, not competitive, burned to the ground or broke before it became dominant. We all remember the AAR Toyota that grenaded motors just starting them up, let alone trying to do a lap with them. Or when their car designs just didn't work out too well and they had to go back to the drawing board. Yes, GTP was over the top and it killed itself but the carrot for everyone involved at the time was so big people worked really hard to get to that point.

I never thought it would happen at the lower levels of racing but it has. No more innovation or hard work. It's just make a class for everyone and race in whatever series that gives you the best BoP. Switch if you have to. When that's the way to go pro racing today, the sanctioning body has to do whatever it takes to get that money in. Even if it takes making everyone equal and making manufacturers pay the bill who end up making the competitors pay the bill due to homologated parts at an extremely inflated cost.

[MoMedic9019]

Marshall Pruett just broke down the BoP debacle in masterful fashion on MWM. If you aren't a regular listener, or don't care for it... it's in the first 30 minutes.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

Marshall Pruett just broke down the BoP debacle in masterful fashion on MWM. If you aren't a regular listener, or don't care for it... it's in the first 30 minutes.

Yeah, he spoke in circles.








L.P.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Yeah, he spoke in circles.

Not even close to the truth.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

Marshall Pruett just broke down the BoP debacle in masterful fashion on MWM. If you aren't a regular listener, or don't care for it... it's in the first 30 minutes.

Thanks... enjoyed listening to that.

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Thanks... enjoyed listening to that.

Any alternative hyperlinks to the Midweek Motorsport series 11 episode 30? The RLM site does not seem to cooperate on the machine I'm on. Might happen to others too.

[fieldodreams79]

MP does a make a good point or two, but I don't like the main point: teams are leaving b/c the AMs can't handle the car based on their own setup in response to BoP? I guess I get it and surely it's more than that, but, if not, come on. That's not the biggest issue with BoP and they can have fun in WC, if they feel better going in another direction.

Originally Posted by MaskedRacer

Any alternative hyperlinks to the Midweek Motorsport series 11 episode 30? The RLM site does not seem to cooperate on the machine I'm on. Might happen to others too.

http://www.radiolemans.co/2016/08/24...11-episode-30/

You can also download podcast app and subscribe to it from there, which is what I normally do, but I am using IE (not my preferred browser) and I've got no problem with it.

[jjvincent]

The points they bring up make sense. I've worked with 100's of drivers over the years. Everything from top notch name brand ones to guys that I'd doubt that could operate a car on the street. I knew that what was going to happen is that when you have an instant success class like GT3, GT4 then top it off with Pro and Am, you are setting yourself up for what is going on. This is because all drivers are not created equal (Pro or Am).

I've had guys that are Am who do everything as good as a pro but just don't have the lap times. They can give intelligent feedback, great communicators on the radio, don't make mistakes, have good racecraft, can adapt to different conditions (can get 100% no matter if the car is not handling right or track conditions deteriorate) work great in traffic, don't mess up in the pits and are extremely consistent. No matter what, they are always off of their Pro in the car but equal to other reasonably quick AM's. Then there are others where if the car is not to their liking they are way off the pace, you know that when the leaders come by that their lap time will drop 2 seconds, pray that they can actually operate the pit speed limiter or make it to the correct pit or they just have the wrong attitude and then they just bring the whole team down with their negativity but nobody will disagree with them because when you fund a race team, you are always right.

One answer to their BoP and driver talent problem is to do a rewards weight or special engine map just for that driver when they are in the car, so it evens them out with that other crappy Am in the same exact car. In essence, detune the car depending on performance of the Am. The second answer is to do a bracket system for each Am. So, your index laptime is a 1:30 and the guy next to you has a 1:35. At the pit stop, you hold the car that went under their index (i.e. you accumulated 10 seconds of time below your index over your stint, you are held in the pits for 10 seconds). If you end with an Am, then the time is added on after the race, so you might have to do like in drag racing where you peddle the car to your index (letting off the gas to slow the car down to hit the index).

In PWC they are opening up a Pandora box because for Sprint X, they will have 5 different classes and handing out 15 trophies. Because they will now have way more people complaining about the driver rankings and the BoP (i.e. our Am-Am lineup can't compete because that team over there actually has a Pro-Am lineup and their Pro can drive the car on the edge, so that driver needs to be promoted to a Pro).

If you think that teams pulling out or just leaving an event won't happen in the future, it's just going to get worse. This is the 4th time it has happened in PWC and IMSA this year (once in PWC and three times in IMSA). This is because the Am's all say, "The amount I'm spending vs the BoP of the (insert manufacturer here), is not worth it for me to keep racing."

[fieldodreams79]

And let's not forget to mention the other things discussed on MWM:

The sky is indeed not falling.
There's some positive news on the top class in IMSA.

[FLGTFAN]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Yeah, he spoke in circles.








L.P.

You are the most consistent IMSA shill here. Maybe just try not to refute everything that doesn't line up with what's good for IMSA.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by FLGTFAN

You are the most consistent IMSA shill here. Maybe just try not to refute everything that doesn't line up with what's good for IMSA.

I did not refute anything, I said he talked in circles. He blamed no one and saw no workable answers. (Some of) The Ams do not/can not drive the Porsche on the edge that it needs to be EXTREMELY competitive with the rest of the field.






L.P.

[seanyb505]

Despite his good points about BOP being more than numbers, I still left with a "suck it up" attitude that Hindy mentioned when he was playing devil's advocate.

Can't drive the car as quickly as required to be competitive? Buy another car, or become a faster driver. You're racing in a so called top flight racing series. Or play the lobby game, by lobbying more/harder/in a more annoying tone of voice, or just quit the year. Because for some reason everything will be better in 4 months at Daytona.

I'm sure this is quite far from reasonable. Hedlund will be on in a second telling me how wrong I am.