Nissan LMP1 Discussion

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by jswarde

Your fixation about the hybrid is misplaced; I think the bigger issue is that Nissan do not have a competitive car yet and that has very little to with the hybrid. Just read DC claiming the car ran without the hybrid engaged and that 8mJ would be worth 4 seconds a lap at Le Mans. Big deal? That would move them up from unclassified finisher to ... umh unclassified finisher! It does not sound much like a working Hybrid will solve all problems at a stroke when they are looking for 20+ seconds a lap.

I don't have a fixation with the hybrid system, I was actually answering your claim that the hybrid "works fine" whilst discussing the mechanical versus electrical system idea. Agreed, the car is missing 20+ seconds, however the lack of hybrid may be worth 4 seconds to a normal car at Le Mans, but some of this cars issues is the inability to put down the power out of the corners until the car is fully straightened out, which is because of the front wheel driver system. Having a hybrid system attached to the rear should give it the ability to accelerate earlier, and to not spin the front wheels on the exit. So it should be worth more. But not 20 seconds more!

If it's still missing 20 seconds after it has a working hybrid, then maybe what Hugh Chamberlain said was right? The reason nobody else has ran it isn't because they don't think outside of the box, but rather it just isn't very good. Hopefully not, as it'd be amazing to see this concept achieve equal times to the others in the long run.

Originally Posted by lne937s

I know they Nissan engines already power up most of the lower prototype classes, but I think it could have been a good way to ease into LMP1. On one level, I can appreciate the "start a fight with the toughest kid on the playground and keep fighting till you are the toughest kid on the playground" approach, but it is painful to watch right now.

Wasn't Garage 56 meant to be the ease into LMP1? And the only reason they were allowed to run the ZEOD is if they agreed to run an LMP1. I wonder if some board members who signed this project off were under the impression it was easier than it was (and therefore required less time and money) because the ZEOD was declared a success only because they moved the goal posts until it looked like it did well. I hope this isn't the case, as I wouldn't like to see this project ended early.

[YorkshireLad]

I mentioned a long time ago about my concerns with the tunnels.. Are they actually working? Remember ALL lmp1's and 2's run the air out behind the front wheels as it's the most efficient way. Nissan has a massive length. Example short straw blows easily, long straw takes more puff to reach the same pressure at the end. Is this system actually work or is this also contributing to the lack of performance?

[lne937s]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Wasn't Garage 56 meant to be the ease into LMP1? And the only reason they were allowed to run the ZEOD is if they agreed to run an LMP1. I wonder if some board members who signed this project off were under the impression it was easier than it was (and therefore required less time and money) because the ZEOD was declared a success only because they moved the goal posts until it looked like it did well. I hope this isn't the case, as I wouldn't like to see this project ended early.

A narrow front track, RWD, battery electric hybrid, transverse mid-mount 3 cylinder car has nothing to do with a FWD, mechanical hybrid, longitudinal front-mount V6 car. The LMP1 engine is made by a different group, chassis by AAR, electronics by Cosworth, hybrid system... all by different groups of people. Only a handful of people were shared between the projects-- there are probably more people in common with the GT500 teams. The ZEOD was not a stepping stone to their current LMP1 car, but rather a completely different concept-- even more different from the FWD Nissan LMP1 than it is from any other car on the track. So they did not ease into LMP1. They started from scratch with an entirely new concept.

[lne937s]

Originally Posted by YorkshireLad

I mentioned a long time ago about my concerns with the tunnels.. Are they actually working? Remember ALL lmp1's and 2's run the air out behind the front wheels as it's the most efficient way. Nissan has a massive length. Example short straw blows easily, long straw takes more puff to reach the same pressure at the end. Is this system actually work or is this also contributing to the lack of performance?

Venting out behind the front wheels creates drag and is not as efficient at creating downforce-- it is just more space efficient when you have a lot of mechanical pieces stuffed into the rear of the car. They are creating an area of low pressure at the front of the car by drawing air through to the low pressure area created at the rear of the car.

No doubt, the effectiveness of the flow-through aero is the least of their concerns.

[bentley speed 8]

Originally Posted by lne937s

Although hindsight is 20/20, I kind of wish they had run in LMP2 this year and then moved up to LMP1 next year.

I don't think manufacturers are allowed in LMP2

[YorkshireLad]

Originally Posted by bentley speed 8

I don't think manufacturers are allowed in LMP2

Could they have funded a team under gt academy?

[nkoske]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Wasn't the ZEODs entry to Garage 56 based on Nissan committing to running a P1 car in the future? That car was unveiled in June 2013 and granted entry the same year.

That's what I recall. The ACO philosphically didn't want the 'same' G56 entries/entrants. But, they gave it to Nissan again on the basis that they'd commit to more.

Originally Posted by Daily Sportscar Article 6/21/2013

The development of the car and it’s technology will not end after Le Mans in 2014 however, as Nissan will be assessing the technology before the race, with LMP1 in mind for the future.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2013/0...t-le-mans.html

[deggis]

If there was still doubt whether the ERS was active or not, here it is from the horse's mouth (was not active):

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/119532

[deggis]

Originally Posted by rdjones

I still think Nissan did a good job last week, people have to remember they are doing there development in public.

I have just been checking to see when Porsche confirmed there P1 program it was 11 June 2012. The car's first race was on April 2014 so that is two years development before there race debut. Nissan confirmed there P1 program on 23 May 2014 with a race debut 13 months later. So who is to say that Porsche didn't have the same problems as Nissan but behind closed door in the 2 years that they where developing there car.

Not sure where did you get date: June 30, 2011 was when the announcement was made. But in any case, you're assuming work on the car started immediately, which would be unlikely since the 2014 regulations weren't yet set in stone in either case.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by nkoske

That's what I recall. The ACO philosphically didn't want the 'same' G56 entries/entrants. But, they gave it to Nissan again on the basis that they'd commit to more.


http://www.dailysportscar.com/2013/0...t-le-mans.html

That's mostly repeating what it said in the press releases at the time ("LMP1 in the future" was often mentioned). Doesn't mean there was some sort of "ok, but you must then do LMP1" agreement. I have never believed there was that kind of agreement because it would have been hilariously blue-eyed and naive from ACO's side.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by deggis

If there was still doubt whether the ERS was active or not, here it is from the horse's mouth (was not active):

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/119532

While throwing out silly incorrect nonsense in nearly every other sentence during the week otherwise, Marc Cole on Eurosport was saying that from the beginning.

Originally Posted by aneesh99

Bowlby needs to be the one talking and not Darren Cox, who at times, is apparently happy to make statements not remotely grounded in reality. I'm with Chiana, nothing but impressed with Ben. Even in the lead up when DC was talking big, he seemed far more on the level. I suppose that's the difference between an engineer that actually understands what's going on and a media mouthpiece.

From day one, I worried that this was PR driven programme. Time that changes before Nissan really start to lose all of their credibility. Nothing but respect for the engineers, mechanics and drivers who are putting their heart and soul into the car and taking the criticism on the chin.

Yeah, right on!

Send mr Cox and his hordes of PR minions to meet these folks and let Ben give all the official presser lines, we would actually get some actual credible info instead of this current unbearable bullcrap

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Chiana

While throwing out silly incorrect nonsense in nearly every other sentence during the week otherwise, Marc Cole on Eurosport was saying that from the beginning.

That was the consensus here too most of the time, but never officially confirmed.

[Deleted]

Alright.

I hope when/if Kolles gang prepare an article of the race they remember to mention scoring more laps in the race than all Nissans, and also partly outqualifying them - some sponsors could actually fancy reading that

[old man]

Looking at the car in parc ferme after the race it simply looked agricultural and as one of the Audi (?) engineers said, they would either be nowhere or prove the rest have been doing it wrongly for years.

Development of the LMP 1 cars is big job and the more radical your design, the longer it is likely to take, that is obvious. The Delta Wing was a publicity stunt but this was not a garage 56 project but a genuine attempt to compete and should have learned something from the earlier project but if was not ready better to not race as Strakka decided last year.

They did say on RLM that 2016 is already budgeted and testing of the car will start in October I think he said. IMO they should go away and test only until they either get it right or decide it cannot be done

I have always believed the old adage that if it looks right, it probably is and this does not look right.

[mikuni]

Originally Posted by old man

I have always believed the old adage that if it looks right, it probably is and this does not look right.

There have been some fantastic looking, terrible race cars over the years.

[nobster]

I just do not believe that they can get this car up to Toyota's pace let alone Porsche and Audi...

[lne937s]

Originally Posted by old man

I have always believed the old adage that if it looks right, it probably is and this does not look right.

Remember, this car was built by Dan Gurney's All American Racers (AAR). Gurney has a long history of racing success with things that break convention and don't look "right" (Gurney flap, blunt-looking Toyota GTP cars, etc.).

There are many things in racing that (at least at first) most people think do not look "right" (flow-through aero, high-nose F1, etc.).

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by lne937s

There are many things in racing that (at least at first) most people think do not look "right" (flow-through aero, high-nose F1, etc.).

All of this. Frankly, most people don't think today's LMPs look "right" until they see them perform.

[old man]

OK Point taken, I accept that one's view of what looks right is influenced by what works and is conventional thinking but the car that stood behind the fence on Sunday evening looked terrible to me.

If they make it work it will be really interesting but I just have my doubts.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by old man

If they make it work it will be really interesting but I just have my doubts.

No sane person DOESN'T have doubts about this. Just got to make sure the doubts don't devolve into irrational hatred.

[deggis]

I stumbled upon this quote, it reads like a forum rant but it is a bit more intriguing...

The Germans, however, do not. This became apparent while chatting with a bigwig from one of Nissan's P1 rivals minutes before the race. The GT-R LM is an attention grab, he said, a sideshow not worthy of racing at la Sarthe. He called the NISMO program "a disgrace," then asked not be quoted by name. Which, considering what he said next, is understandable:

"What is their intention? You can come here and do whatever you want, say whatever you want, but when the final minutes come, what will you show? That's what racing is about. Is coming to race just a marketing tool? Just marketing? That's what ****es me off. In the old days, the technical side was on top. Now, marketing is the top. The technical side is not as important.

"And if it is just marketing that Nissan is doing, then there is something wrong with the sport. If [the car] isn't showing promise in simulations and testing, it will never fly. Never. They may be embarrassed, but they knew from the beginning, after the Sebring test. Stay home. Even if it's totally different, it still has to work."

http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorspo...od-for-racing/

[Chuliandred]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

No sane person DOESN'T have doubts about this. Just got to make sure the doubts don't devolve into irrational hatred.

Didn't you see them cornering? Insanity must be a very common thing these days.

Originally Posted by deggis

I stumbled upon this quote, it reads like a forum rant but it is a bit more intriguing...
http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorspo...od-for-racing/

Pretty much sums it up. Likeable concept (under the hood), likeable car design, great effort to keep the cars running (especially being so far from contention) but for the project execution is not up to the standards set by Toyota and the VAGs.
I don't doubt that they will be fast in the straight line. But I think it is quite questionable if they will be able to make up the time they loose not only through croners but also under braking. Nevertheless, I hope for them to be on par with the others. Even having Toyota and Nissan this year competing in the LMP1 the race reminded me a lot of the Audi vs Peugeot years. Can only further improve if there are more contenders with a real shot for the glory.

[TF110]

I would seriously love for this car to come on good and shut up all the negativity. I hope it does with every part of this sport I love. My wishes arent worth anything, but if Nissan's pride is as great, it'll be. Anyway, interesting Cox says some fundamental improvements are needed and should be on their way.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Chuliandred

Didn't you see them cornering?

Yes I did. Most of the time a match for LMP2 cars.

But guess what? Corners are where the hybrid system will actually be doing something - if they get it working, of course.

This is why I refer to the hatred as irrational - it's so heavily focused on the cornering that it FAILS to take into account the fact that cornering is exactly where the hybrid system will be benefiting the car the most. They obviously don't need the hybrid for the straightline speed, after all.

But I think it is quite questionable if they will be able to make up the time they loose not only through croners but also under braking.

You see, that's the thing - the hybrid system will help them in all those areas. The ERS will actually help making their braking more efficient going in. The energy powering the hybrid will then allow them to hold more speed in the middle of the corner, as well as accelerate sooner on exit.

Their hybrid concept is EXPLICITLY meant to address the shortcomings of the FWD design. Being able to corner on par with an LMP2 everywhere but entry without the assistance indicates the car doesn't need a massive amount of help to get through at LMP1 speeds through the whole corner. It does look like the AWD will provide a considerable amount of assistance.

Enough to win? That remains to be seen. Enough to be up at least where Toyota was this year? The only thing keeping me from putting money on that is my aversion to gambling.

[hcl123]

I think they will need much more than a working hybrid system to be on par with the top LMP1 upon cornering... besides if you count on hybrid for entering, in the middle and sorting out of corners... with all those different corners in WEC!? ... i think controlling a pure mechanical contraption for that is akin to 'mission impossible'... i don't know perhaps they can pull it off, Marc Gene is gone Tom Cruise enters lol... else the sensible thing would be to have a different hybrid system altogether, one that for damn sure works, no matter if its inferior or electric, at least there will be less excuses and more pace.