Grand-Am 2011 Discussion

[chernaudi]

And chassis wise, the Riley DP is very similar to the R&S MkIII WSC car, but with a longer wheelbase (110 inches for the DP vs 108 or so for the WSC), and an improved roll cage to go with the roof.

Obviously, I'd expect them to be faster than those cars were back then, but put a R&S MkIII on newer tires, and you'll probably see for sure similar times.

The irony there is that the DPs were designed with the intent of slowing the cars at Daytona, making them a bit safter (roof and beefed up rollcage), and making them cheaper (cars being based mostly on a tube frame chassis like NASCAR stock cars, but more closely related to the old R&S Intrepid/MkIII designs).

They may be cheaper than what a Group C car would be today for the start up cost, but the DPs cost almost as much to run a season (maintainance and R&D) as a modern LMP customer car. Sponsorship probably runs the same, too, but the initial investment for the cars are less.

[Speed-King]

Don't forget that the WSCs ran at around 900kgs, whereas DPs come in at over a ton...

[HJJ]

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...ss-on-dp-2012/

[Purist]

You know, I'm surprised nobody has brought up the money issue with the new cars.

i mean, fields aren't holding steady, or going in the positive direction, and this is with the present cars. I can't imagine that GT3s, especially ones that can't actually run in standard trim and have to be further modified, are going to be cheaper than the current Grand-Am GTs. The DPs, I suppose, might not be too much different, unless they are in fact going to allow turbos. If turbos are in, prices will go up significantly.

Of course, it will all be moot if Action Express can only manage to be the "Dyson" that just occasionally knocks off the "Audi" that is Ganassi.

[chernaudi]

I did touch on cost a bit--DPs and the GA GTs are cheaper on initial purchase compared to an LMP or ACO/IMSA GT car, but in the long run, they cost the same to sponsor, maintain, and race on a weekly basis.

In the end, I don't think that there's much ROI on the initial start up savings by going to Grand Am vs ALMS, and that such savings would be a drop in the ocean by the end of the season.

And that's for the current cars--the DPs will probably cost the same new and some money can be saved as the older cars can be converted to the new specs, but the GT3's will be more expensive, especially if like the Audi, it has to be heavily modified to suit the rules.

[DS"]

I really like the 2012 DP design concepts, as shown here: http://www.andyblackmoredesign.com/grandam

I especially like the ques from production models. Hopefully we'll see something like that in real life, although I don't want the DP's to be a large Riley-cup. But I'm confident that Dallara, Coyote and the other manufacturers might incorporate the BMW kidneys or Porsche headlights, too. So in theory, we might see countless possible configurations for the DP's

[Félix]

Do we know what they intend to do to the chassis? Can you take off cockpit greenhouse tubes and weld in a smaller greenhouse? Or is it a case of mounting all the parts/consumables the teams already own to a new slicker chassis? (I'm guessing a chassis alone would cost around 100,000$ (or less?) if they can reuse ALL the other parts they already have because they fit on the new chassis)

[Speed-King]

It's the former... below the waistline the cars will remain the same, at least internally...

[Danske]

The main roll bar looked pretty integrated to me, which is why I was skeptical that it would be as easy as just chopping off the roof to make everything smaller; but if the people actually involved with the cars seem to think they can do it, and not just some Random Internet Guy is proposing it, I'll tentatively withdraw my reservations.

It's been said that the current cars as they are now will be grandfathered at least one year and possibly beyond that. If those three dozen Rileys in existence can all be modified to the 2012 regs, that's a good source of refurbished cars for the future.

[Dyson Mazda]

Only 21 cars on the Lime Rock entry list.

http://www.grand-am.com/schedule/ent...ies=r&eid=2356

The two series are really dying right in front of us

[Speed-King]

The two Starworks cars are usually late entries, so I wouldn't read too much into their absence from the list just yet.

And GT will be up to the usual 16 cars again for the six hours at the Glen the week after Lime Rock.

So while it definitely isn't looking good, it's still pretty much on par with what we have seen during the season so far (excluding Daytona).

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

Only 21 cars on the Lime Rock entry list.

http://www.grand-am.com/schedule/ent...ies=r&eid=2356

The two series are really dying right in front of us

AIM Autosport and the two Starworks cars will be at Lime Rock (I think at Homestead they only showed up on the entry list Thursday before the race).

Look on the other page, Continental Tire Challenge simply is better than both the ALMS and Rolex at the moment, and appears to be secretly leading the way in US Sports car Racing (even though its more like old school Trans Am). Tough times indeed, only good news for Rolex is they appear to be getting ready to change vs the ALMS and Atherton keeping their heads stuck in the stand.

[hondafan37]

(FordCosworthPanoz) Look on the other page, Continental Tire Challenge simply is better than both the ALMS and Rolex at the moment, and appears to be secretly leading the way in US Sports car Racing (even though its more like old school Trans Am). Tough times indeed, only good news for Rolex is they appear to be getting ready to change vs the ALMS and Atherton keeping their heads stuck in the stand.

I think like you, Grand am is appear to be getting ready to change. The ALMS is completely quite and that is worrying

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Look on the other page, Continental Tire Challenge simply is better than both the ALMS and Rolex at the moment, and appears to be secretly leading the way in US Sports car Racing (even though its more like old school Trans Am).

If it's all the market can support, so be it.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

I think like you, Grand am is appear to be getting ready to change. The ALMS is completely quite and that is worrying

Be too much to expect that they may try pulling in the same direction .

With respect to GA , their sportscar style hasnt thrived anyplace else but within the USA ..... while ACO style has ..... maybe a lesson should be learned and try to ressurect a proper sportscar series within America , run under simlar ACO regs .

[picchiofan]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Be too much to expect that they may try pulling in the same direction .

With respect to GA , their sportscar style hasnt thrived anyplace else but within the USA ..... while ACO style has ..... maybe a lesson should be learned and try to ressurect a proper sportscar series within America , run under simlar ACO regs .

Where exactly is ACO-style sportscar racing "thriving" in the US? The ALMS? They have 3 LMP cars. 3. LMP2 has one car. The only "healthy" classes in the ALMS are LMPC, a spec cost contained prototype class (gee, where'd that idea come from), and the GTC class which consists mostly of the same teams that run the cars in GA GT.

Muscle milk was *this* close to running a GT class porsche this year. That would have given the ALMS 1 car in each of its "top" two classes. Thriving indeed.

GA right now is not going to make huge drastic changes to the car. Everyone saw what happened when CART/Champcar/whatever it was did a wholescale chassis change when the teams had no funds, it killed the series. From the beginning of the class, it was said that 2012 would be "updates", much like it was in 2007. The basic idea is sound. The tube frame bodies & stockblock crate motors work well. The cars are safe and easy to repair. Going with something a little more attractive, and "non-CFD-y", which I love the statement in the article makes sense.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Be too much to expect that they may try pulling in the same direction .

With respect to GA , their sportscar style hasnt thrived anyplace else but within the USA ..... while ACO style has ..... maybe a lesson should be learned and try to ressurect a proper sportscar series within America , run under simlar ACO regs .

One size fits all isn't the way to go. The verdict is still out on GAs 2012 rules overhaul, but I think the last few years have proven, that ACO-style sportscar racing is not a viable option in the US, at least in the current economic climate...

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by picchiofan

Where exactly is ACO-style sportscar racing "thriving" in the US? The ALMS? They have 3 LMP cars. 3. LMP2 has one car. The only "healthy" classes in the ALMS are LMPC, a spec cost contained prototype class (gee, where'd that idea come from), and the GTC class which consists mostly of the same teams that run the cars in GA GT.

Muscle milk was *this* close to running a GT class porsche this year. That would have given the ALMS 1 car in each of its "top" two classes. Thriving indeed.

GA right now is not going to make huge drastic changes to the car. Everyone saw what happened when CART/Champcar/whatever it was did a wholescale chassis change when the teams had no funds, it killed the series. From the beginning of the class, it was said that 2012 would be "updates", much like it was in 2007. The basic idea is sound. The tube frame bodies & stockblock crate motors work well. The cars are safe and easy to repair. Going with something a little more attractive, and "non-CFD-y", which I love the statement in the article makes sense.

Picchio, what you have here is a failure to read.

The post you quoted said that Grand Am was only working in the US, while ACO had thrived outside. Well, ACO had thrived inside the US too, but currently it is struggling, as Grand Am is too.

You also say the only healthy ALMS classes are LMP-C, GT-C.... you don't think GT is healthy in the ALMS? currently.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Picchio, what you have here is a failure to read.

The post you quoted said that Grand Am was only working in the US, while ACO had thrived outside. Well, ACO had thrived inside the US too, but currently it is struggling, as Grand Am is too.

You also say the only healthy ALMS classes are LMP-C, GT-C.... you don't think GT is healthy in the ALMS? currently.

Even Peter Baron said that he thought the ALMS GT class was the strongest sports car class in North America.

I think certain parts of ACO racing work in different places(eg GTE pretty much everywhere, LMP2 in Europe, LMP1 for manufacturer driven championship) and the FIA is the same with GT3/GT4 rules. Rolex is starting to struggle, but the Continental Tire Challenge in terms of grid quality appears to be as great as it ever was.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

the Continental Tire Challenge in terms of grid quality appears to be as great as it ever was.

This series allows a team to build and develop a car on their own, correct?

[joeb]

Has anybody seen an estimate (money wise) of what it might take to upgrade a current DP chassis into a 2012 chassis? At a minimum it will involve reworking the roll cage and subsequently the entire top part of the chassis' bodywork. Then if a team wants to adjust the "styling" of their DP that will require lots of new bodywork and spares.

Now that I think about it, these 2012 DP concepts almost sound a little bit like the Indy body kits....

Along these lines, my favorite quote from Dave Spitzer regarding the changes is this:

“The only way to allow someone to focus on beauty and passion and not only racing performance is to have some ability to go in there and control the competition balance. That way you can protect someone who wants to invest in a really dramatic shape from getting beat on the racetrack all the time.”

So basically he is saying make your car look like whatever (potentially) inefficient shape you want and we will keep you competitive!

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by picchiofan

Where exactly is ACO-style sportscar racing "thriving" in the US?

It hasnt ..... cuz you have too many series . Combine the two of them , and go racing not *****in .

With respect to LMS and ILMC ..... they are looking great . Dont you think if the GA adopted some of the ACO rules , it might be better for sportscar racing the world over .

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

One size fits all isn't the way to go. The verdict is still out on GAs 2012 rules overhaul, but I think the last few years have proven, that ACO-style sportscar racing is not a viable option in the US, at least in the current economic climate...

Why ..... tell me that the top DP teams dont use big money or something ?

Thats why there is top DP teams !!!

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by skycafe

This series allows a team to build and develop a car on their own, correct?

I believe so, I know guys like APR do this. A lot of the street tuner crowd is in to this series. Obviously, there are some cases like the BOSS 302R. But its a really good series for privateers to race in, esepcially ST class. The grand am website has some more on it, just started following it last year so Im not the best person to ask.

Just to give you an idea, here is the list of cars competing at Lime Rock:

Grand Sport:
Camaro GS.R
Porsche Cayman
BMW M3 Coupe
Mustang BOSS 302R
Mustang GT
Subaru WRX STI

Street Tuner:
BMW 128i
BMW 328i
BMW 330
Porsche Boxter
Mazda MX-5
Mazda 3
Mazda RX8
KIA Forte
Honda Civic
Volkswagen GTI
Mini Cooper S

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

I believe so, I know guys like APR do this. A lot of the street tuner crowd is in to this series. Obviously, there are some cases like the BOSS 302R. But its a really good series for privateers to race in, esepcially ST class. The grand am website has some more on it, just started following it last year so Im not the best person to ask.

Just to give you an idea, here is the list of cars competing at Lime Rock:

Grand Sport:
Camaro GS.R
Porsche Cayman
BMW M3 Coupe
Mustang BOSS 302R
Mustang GT
Subaru WRX STI

Street Tuner:
BMW 128i
BMW 328i
BMW 330
Porsche Boxter
Mazda MX-5
Mazda 3
Mazda RX8
KIA Forte
Honda Civic
Volkswagen GTI
Mini Cooper S

Don't know about the Mustangs, but I don't think anything else on that list is 'turnkey,' unless from prep shop. So, cars being prepped in garages and prep shops, built up from production cars. I would guess also that other specialist like engine builders and their various suppliers are involved. So, take the Mini, no two may be alike even if prepped to same rules

Which sounds exactly like the way racing used to get done here in the states and just about everywhere.....which seems to be the eras when we had big grids in road racing.