World Rallycross Championship 2016

[HoleInTheHedge]

Different regs regarding the Ecu and engine management between world and euro rx means it would cost the likes of Proctor and O'Donovan an additional 10k just to conform to regulations for a one off event!!

[Distracted]

That's crazy!

[HoleInTheHedge]

Originally Posted by Distracted

That's crazy!

Unfortunately that's the way it is

[Hickey]

Still crazy . Generally supported IMG in what they have done to make the sport bigger but this is damn stupid

[geordiecriag101]

Have got to agree, there is no reason why the rules should be different between the 2. I hope sum common sense prevails asap and they make them the same.
Just out of curiosity, what are the differences?

[chunder]

Being brutally honest, they are trying to steer rallycross into their own sport, not what rallycross used to be in many ways. Quite why a different ECU is needed is beyond me, anyone know why this is being done?

This is probably why their cars are being split in heats and finals.

Some of the things they have done are superb, but there are some people involved in WRX that have been around rallycross for a very long time, some of them British. And this kind of decision should make them feel ashamed of themselves sadly.

All you can do as a fan is stay or go, for me I think they are taking rallycross away from drivers and fans, tickets are getting more and more expensive, driving is getting more and more aggressive, damage is worse.

I really do worry, and have been saying this for years. Maybe, people might start to realise that these concerns are not simply *****ing for the sake of it but real concerns about what these people are doing to the sport now and in the future.

If you have been watching as long as I have, a lot of what is going on now is seriously worrying.

[chunder]

ON a positive note, Brands sounds good Bert! I went a few years back and it was a good day! Full track is a belter

[Hickey]

I wouldn't mind the division of ERX and WRX as much if, at least, each European round had both ERX and WRX competitions (with the exception of Hockenheim which is clearly there to fill gaps in a DTM schedule). I suspect most of us would be delighted if we had Mettet entries in supercars on our front door.

I hate that some events don't have ERX but fine, I could live with that if, like last year, ERX drivers still entered as the rules were analogous. This change makes no sense at all. If I had signed up to a 10 Year deal I would be really hacked off. Hopefully lessons are learnt.

I'm not sure the doom and gloom chat is relevant just yet (especially given that Mettet promises to he something special), I just wish that each event was as good as that and really don't see any reason why it shouldn't be. I'm just glad that I'm lucky enough to go to Lydden and Mettet.

[chunder]

The big deal here is the word WORLD in the series.

That is why the ERC guys wont register and its not worth it for them to.

This series has gone from a relatively simple European series to a world championship without really doing any groundwork, juts had money thrown at it by a bunch of greedy marketeers and some very annoyed circuit owners who cant make the events pay. What happened to Maggiora? Turkey? Kuovala? They all lost a bunch of money and were outbid by a countries tourism board in Argentina, Canada and Germany who already has a round!

IMG have simply stuck a WORLD series brand on it and gone to Canada and Argentina and called it a world series, it is anything but.

So. that means massive logistics costs, huge registration fees, marketing (every event abroad hires town centres etc) all these things ERC guys will never need or want to pay for. WRX teams HAVE to pay for all this as part of their registration.

But I do not get why ERC can't compete in every round in Europe. Is it because Lydden want to put on another car failing GpB session like last time that managed to get its star man banned for a year? And rubbish like rage buggies instead of proper rallycross cars driven by guys that are from the proper series not this bumped up dodgems WRX is now?

I might go to the Saturday (all I ever used to do anyway) but travelling to Europe is now something I would never consider doing, especially to temporary circuits.

Does anyone know the real reason why the works cars are using different tech? Are they using a spec ECU (meaning someone like Marelli makes a bunch of money supplying it and you cant race unless you use it, hire it etc)

[HoleInTheHedge]

Page 6 explains
http://www.fia.com/file/37753/download?token=aqWTGvcv

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by HoleInTheHedge

Page 6 explains
http://www.fia.com/file/37753/download?token=aqWTGvcv

Cheers for the link. Not so much "different rules" then, but the World Championship cars require the very latest spec ECU (and data acquisition system)? No reason that Euro cars can't be in compliance with those regulations then, as long as the drivers have the budget to shell out on the very latest components?

Given some of the paddock talk I've heard concerning ECU's (and I appreciate that it may be nothing more than talk), I can't say I'm surprised to read such specific regulations concerning that particular component.


NB: Perhaps I am underestimating the cost of motorsport components, but if drivers are talking about £10K (or more) to get the car suitable for World competition then I would assume that cost is for replacement ECU and/or preparing the car for a data acquisition system?

[HoleInTheHedge]

Originally Posted by tbtstt

Cheers for the link. Not so much "different rules" then, but the World Championship cars require the very latest spec ECU (and data acquisition system)? No reason that Euro cars can't be in compliance with those regulations then, as long as the drivers have the budget to shell out on the very latest components?

Given some of the paddock talk I've heard concerning ECU's (and I appreciate that it may be nothing more than talk), I can't say I'm surprised to read such specific regulations concerning that particular component.


NB: Perhaps I am underestimating the cost of motorsport components, but if drivers are talking about £10K (or more) to get the car suitable for World competition then I would assume that cost is for replacement ECU and/or preparing the car for a data acquisition system?

You have the ECU cost, a new wireing loom and remapping.
A nice amount to spend if you hadn't allowed for it in your budget before the season started.
As you said yes there is a lot of talk in both the national and international championships, something like this may help to clamp down

[chunder]

That is fine for the new teams with their massive budgets, but I suppose IMG do not want small teams striving to be better do they?

[tbtstt]

You have the ECU cost, a new wireing loom and remapping.

Ah, replacing the loom would account for the £10K costs that have been mentioned. I assume that the replacement loom then allows for the use of the data acquisition system?

Originally Posted by chunder

That is fine for the new teams with their massive budgets, but I suppose IMG do not want small teams striving to be better do they?

I would say that's the glass half empty viewpoint.

Considering the same argument from a glass half full perspective, I would say that the FiA/IMG want to do everything possible to ensure that everyone is playing fairly at the top level of the sport, whether they are in a big or small team.

Keeping tabs on engine management must be a real nightmare; regulating the components used (and ensuring that there is a way of interrogating the function of those components) will surely prevent someone exploiting that element of the regulations.

[chunder]

But isn't rallycross supposed to be a sort of unlimited formula? It always used to be, other than a restrictor and safety rules?

Making private teams with older cars fork out tens of thousands for extra kit just to be able to race is nothing BUT a glass half-full situation. It is yet more distance between factory and private, clearly the direction IMG want to go in, private is not as sexy, yet they want them there to market "50 cars faster than F1 to 60, blah blah blah" Yet only 15 of them are the ones they give a toss about. Also makes it easier to charge more money.

It is anything but fair, but would you expect anything else? No.

I see the point in making a line in the sand, but you can see where this is going can't you? A proper world series going to a lot of different countries with only 20 works cars, the rest as Lites or other support dross that is easy to scrutineer and transport. ERC going it's own way hopefully.

That would make me a very happy man.

[Hickey]

It's not like these guys in ERX are on a shoe string! Probably the tightest of budgets is Godfrey but he managed to get an ECU (presumably through his contacts).

I don't mind an elite series, I just wish that ERX was at every European round. That would make me a very happy man too. Going its separate way concerns me. Rallycross challenge is a flop and no guarantee that a separate ERC Championship would work. I'd like it to stay as a support class, attract a solid following of 25 cars each round (which it seems to have done), lower fees and regs, and arrange its own TV deal.

Despite getting no coverage ever S1600 has seen better entries this year than last so something is clearly drawing people and advertising companies in, I guess I just think (like all armchair enthusiasts) that IMG are missing the odd trick here and there.

[chunder]

I think the plan seems to be to grow the WRX contingent. They want 6 or 7 works teams maybe more. ERX is only really there as support, it shouldn't be. But it has to be there to warrant hosting fees and events and speccy prices or no-one would go if they were long term fans

But that works both ways, the driving in WRX is so ridiculous now it's unfair for guys like Scott, Procter, Jansen, Pauwels to have to put up with garbage driving like that, but they would also want to prove themselves against the top guys and prove their engineering prowess in certain aspects. They are bing prevented from doing that in some ways. Unless they commit to massive outlay in terms of money to IMG for logistics and massive extra car costs. SO even a guy like Isachsen would perhaps be unable to compete in WRX unless he was in 'team'

WRC is playing into IMG's hands with a poor series, one team domination and a lack of direction. Rallycross has what is has always needed, money and backing, but it is being taken down a route that it isn't ready for yet in my view that's all.

I would be happier and I think a lot of fans would if they took their time a bit more, got the supports right, got the tracks right before galloping off and running before they can walk. It is as simple as that.

Like Jurassic Park, they sold it, packaged it, stuck it on a t shirt without actually ever stopping to think about it for a second.

They are learning, the team thing is a waste of time, rallycross is and always should be an individual sport.

[Hickey]

Scott and Jansen are two of the worst culprits for dodgem driving! I'm not sure the driving standards are any worse now than in the Schanche days or any time in between. Ekkstrom, Hansen and Solberg for example are very clean divers.

[HoleInTheHedge]

With the divide between Wrx and Erx now more than ever there is an opportunity to have an end of season Grand Prix, not necessarly Brands Hatch.
Throw in some national regulars from Britan, France, etc and you could possibly have 70-80 supercars, no need for support races, I'm sure you could sell tickets for that!

[1975DCS]

I am against any form of restrictions, unless it is necessary to keep costs down. Now it seems the restrictions may cost teams and drivers more. For example: limit carbon parts to spoilers, bonnets and wheel arches. Ditch the restrictor in favour of a maximum size turbo and limit electronics so we don't see launch control or similar

[crossfades]

Originally Posted by HoleInTheHedge

With the divide between Wrx and Erx now more than ever there is an opportunity to have an end of season Grand Prix, not necessarly Brands Hatch.
Throw in some national regulars from Britan, France, etc and you could possibly have 70-80 supercars, no need for support races, I'm sure you could sell tickets for that!

70-80 supercars? Is that even possible?

[chunder]

Any time you introduce electronics and/or aerodynamics you introduce massive costs as teams try and find ways to cheat the system and that costs serious money. But probably no more than no limits on development.

I do not think driving standards are that different, but there is more pressure than there used to be. Watching the racing at times now, I think every single race every car is hitting someone somewhere, either really hard to remove panels or taps to barge them out the way.

It seems judges of fact are now non-existent.

I do not dispute driving was any worse back then, but for me (going back to GpB and a few years after) every single final now there is almost an expectation of contact and panels being removed and bumpers flying. Back then is was relatively rare in the big class if not the lower classes.

I just think it looks a bit amateur and tatty for a supposed world series.

[feewaybill]

Not sure I agree with much that has been recently said.

I followed Mark Lloyd from Autocross into Rallycross back in the mid 80's and have supported it ever since. None of the 'issues' mentioned are new. We had the introduction of four wheel drive, turbos, Group B, all of which were initially out of reach of the privateers. We also went through periods where Rallycross was a minority sport followed by dwindling crowds. And as for the driving, well Schanche and Gibson weren't exactly clean, AND THAT IS WHY THEY ARE STILL REVERED. Panel bashing is what your average Joe wants to see, the BTCC caught onto that.

The current WRX is outstanding in every way, awesome machinery, quality drivers and sensational racing. Did you see semi-final 2 on Sunday? The TV coverage this year is also first class and can I just say a huge thank you to Quest.

I have never understood this modern desire to continually return to a message board to regularly rubbish something that clearly no longer appeals to you. Isn't it simpler and more rewarding to go and find something that you enjoy and makes you happy?

Me, my father, and my son will be camping out at a packed Lydden in 2 weeks time, and soaking up every minute of what is currently THE most exciting motorsport on the planet. I remember some of the dreadful, poorly supported meetings of the past, and personally I am glad we have moved on. My recommendation is make the most of it. It might not be around for long, as Heraclitus said a long time ago, change is the only constant.

[chunder]

You are welcome to your opinion as I am to mine.

If you think modern WRX is the most amazing thing in the world then I am sure IMG will love you for the rest of time. It has grown in a lot of ways, and left rallycross behind in others.

WRX is certainly not outstanding in every way, semi final 2 last weekend was a banger race. I am not sure seeing cars rolling and finishing the race with no straight panels is classed as 'action' in some eyes? Maybe so, if so we certainly are at opposing ends of the 'action' stakes!

I watch all sorts of motorsport, recently been to watch motocross, Blancpain, a few clubbies, rallying and stock car racing.

But I STARTED watching rallycross in 1985 and have watched it since then. And am simply a little surprised at what the people running WRX are doing.

Regarding some of your comments about past drivers. Gibson was always a nutter but he was a true privateer against well backed teams, Martin was selectively a nutter when he felt wronged but usually raced fairly. Most of the rest were fairly clean in the big class. Group N bought a level of driving that was appalling and is about as close to the modern supercars in terms of damage and stuff. Most of the club stuff was OK.

I do agree that rallycross has had hard times, Pembrey ERC about the low point for one! But what you call progress I call profiteering for the short term, they don't give a damn about rallycross per se, only their product. Fair enough you might say, but the end game is worrying.

Posting glowing threads as all very well, but perhaps better to do it directly to the WRX twitter feed or to IMG themselves. AS I am not going to change my views until I see some evidence that IMG have any concern about anything but their bank balance.

[Distracted]

I overheard a conversation last year at Lydden between two officials about how expensive the sport was getting. They were concerned that only factory teams would be able to afford it in the long run.