[Tech Issue] Pirelli-The Tyre Story..

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Yes it does, it's called brain wear...

Bernie thinks that the drivers need to use them more.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107564

Originally Posted by jsTrecu

I don't know if they've gone past that point, possible but hard to believe.

It's the whole reason for why Red Bull think they're car is being reined back.

Originally Posted by fredd1

But, how much of a factor should they be ? I think that's where most people disagree.

They have always been a factor. But in any case, if all of the cars had done the same number of stops that Ferrari and Lotus did, then we wouldn't be having this debate.

Originally Posted by fredd1

So what are you saying here?
I understand and concur with your opening sentence.
Who is the 'they' in the second sentence - teams or Pirelli? (Doesn't really matter in a way although having a tyre designed for next season tossed at you during qualifying for the last race of the preceding season hardly seems the way to go when your first sentence is applied.)
As to the third? Well, the brains that cooked this up seem to have something to answer for, although Pirelli are in what, their third season? Find it difficult to believe the tyre testing regime couldn't have been resolved.

I'm saying that all of the teams had a good idea of what Pirelli were up to, even before the Brazilian GP. Pirelli 'knew', even if the teams were all ignorant of any press releases.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/103116

Pirelli are pretty much demanding that something needs to change with regard to tyre testing. As they say, they, nor any other tyre manufacturer, has any idea what the the 2014 tyres should be like. It's not even known if pitstops for tyres will be allowed or not! So should they assume that it's business as usual, even though they don't currently have a tyre contract for next season?!!

http://wap.nytimes.com/reuters/2013/...=sports.global

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Marbot

I'm saying that all of the teams had a good idea of what Pirelli were up to, even before the Brazilian GP. Pirelli 'knew', even if the teams were all ignorant of any press releases.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/103116

from your link:

'Although Pirelli had previously suggested that the construction of its tyres would remain the same for 2013.'

i do like how your article links to another article from a month earlier saying that they were not going to make any big changes from 2012 to 2013. in fairness Hembery also mentions that nothing had been decided at that point but from the from the rest of that article, which i have included below, it does sound like as of september 2012 the consensus was still more towards evolution rather than revolution.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/102119/

i do agree that Pirelli can hardly be faulted for the testing rules and not having a proper test platform to get around this. but still whether this is a problem of Pirelli's making or that of another case of F1 lacking the unity to avoid these types of problems the problem still remains....rather my problem still remains!

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

from your link:

'Although Pirelli had previously suggested that the construction of its tyres would remain the same for 2013.'

i do like how your article links to another article from a month earlier saying that they were not going to make any big changes from 2012 to 2013.

And it was around that time that some fans, and some F1 pundits, were complaining that the races had become too predictable again because Pirelli had apparently gone too conservative with its tyre choice. When you have seven different winners at the beginning of the season and have the majority of fans and F1 pundits thinking that it's great, then it's not so surprising that when it does get more predictable, that you then need to make changes somewhere to bring back the unpredictability.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i do agree that Pirelli can hardly be faulted for the testing rules and not having a proper test platform to get around this. but still whether this is a problem of Pirelli's making or that of another case of F1 lacking the unity to avoid these types of problems the problem still remains....rather my problem still remains!

From that article: "Team managers held a sporting working group meeting at the Spanish Grand Prix and voted to maintain a ban on in-season testing, despite opposition from some teams."

There are obviously teams against spending vast sums of money on in-season testing, hence the voting against its return. These teams would possibly also benefit from tyres that aren't too predictable in nature.

The teams for in-season testing would obviously be able to dial their cars into the various compounds of tyre a lot better, without having to resort to 'flying blind' in free practice sessions.

Pros and cons, as always.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Scooter185

Higher downforce means quicker cornering speeds, which increase the load on the tires. The load experienced is perpendicular to the tires, and because for every force there is an equal and opposite force, the tire is literally being torn in half; the outside rear especially so. It seems like the construction of the tires don't deal with that force trying to tear them in half all that well, leading to rapid degradation and possibly delamination.

Then there's the thermodynamics of it, the higher cornering speeds of a high df car are going to generate more heat and thus more pressure. With the tires designed to have a specific temperature operating window a high df car will get there and past it much quicker.

This is just a quick reasoning based on my limited knowledge of physics so take it for what you will.

The ground effect era produced very high cornering speeds but apart from Villeneuve's left rear tyre exploding, at the Dutch GP in '79 where he famously or infamously drove the car back, I can't think of any other major tyre failures.

Talking about the loading of the tyre being perpendicular, I just wonder if part of the problem, particularly with the rear tyres, is the size. The rear tyres now are much smaller in diameter and circumference than they used to be.

[jsTrecu]

Last year's tyres were good so I don't think it's a matter of size, but has more to do with how the structure is made and what the purpose of the tyre is.

Originally Posted by Marbot

Bernie thinks that the drivers need to use them more.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107564

He also said not long ago that these tyres are not what Pirelli was asked to do, quoting that twisted little mind of his is always a risk

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by jsTrecu

He also said not long ago that these tyres are not what Pirelli was asked to do, quoting that twisted little mind of his is always a risk

Yes he did, but I think that he is looking at the situation going forwards rather than backwards.

[jsTrecu]

Or maybe he is just trying to make people think everything is fine when he really is pushing to make a change behind closed doors. You never know with Mr. Ecclestone...
We'll have to wait until Canada anyway to see how all this will turn out.


I have a question tho, maybe you or someone else can anwser. How long does it take to produce an entire batch of tyres needed for a full weekend ? I'm curious to know if Pirelli have already started to build them or if there is still time for more changes to be applied to the new compounds.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by jsTrecu

Or maybe he is just trying to make people think everything is fine when he really is pushing to make a change behind closed doors. You never know with Mr. Ecclestone...
We'll have to wait until Canada anyway to see how all this will turn out.


I have a question tho, maybe you or someone else can anwser. How long does it take to produce an entire batch of tyres needed for a full weekend ? I'm curious to know if Pirelli have already started to build them or if there is still time for more changes to be applied to the new compounds.

Bridgestone were producing motorcycle tyres overnight, following MotoGP quallifying, for the race next day!

[JeremySmith]

When did Bernie last drive a Formula 1 car...

You know who you are don't you...

[jsTrecu]

Originally Posted by wnut

Bridgestone were producing motorcycle tyres overnight, following MotoGP quallifying, for the race next day!

Ah yes, that's true. For some reason I thought it would take more time...

[Sodemo]

For me, the tyres need to be re-thought. Things that a tyre should give a driver;

- Good mechanical grip
- The ability to sit in a slipstream for several laps without "ruining" or overheating the tyre
- Small lock-ups don't mean a ruined tyre
- A wider slip angle on the rear tyre to allow drivers to slide the rear of the car easier at low speed
- Tyres should last 20 laps approx.
- Should degrade in a linear fashion, not with a "cliff" type fall off in grip.

[Sodemo]

Oh and get rid of the ridiculous amount of marbles that are generated. It seems like an outragous contradiction of the FIA to push safety at every avenue, then allow a sea of marbles off-line which in the past has caused quite big shunts when drivers have been forced onto them.

[wolfhound]

Pirelli is threatening to pull out of F1 if it does not have a contract for 2014 very soon. Some of those in F1 have agreed terms but some of the teams and the FIA have not as yet.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107609

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

Pirelli is threatening to pull out of F1 if it does not have a contract for 2014 very soon. Some of those in F1 have agreed terms but some of the teams and the FIA have not as yet.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107609

Unfortunately I can't access this page as I've used up all my free view for the month.

[chillibowl]

same story on another website.

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/pire...170754694.html

also saw this on another site today about how Force India will veto any proposed changes to tire construction this year.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns25496.html

my feelings about the tires and impression that Hembery spends a bit too much time in front of a microphone aside, cant say i blame Pirelli for realizing that navigating the teams, F1, FIA, and fans is an impossible job.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

same story on another website.

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/pire...170754694.html

also saw this on another site today about how Force India will veto any proposed changes to tire construction this year.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns25496.html

my feelings about the tires and impression that Hembery spends a bit too much time in front of a microphone aside, cant say i blame Pirelli for realizing that navigating the teams, F1, FIA, and fans is an impossible job.

Thanks. Well it begs the question, who will supply F1 if Pirelli do quit?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

- Tyres should last 20 laps approx.

20 laps approx, where? A tyre could last for 20 laps at one circuit, five laps at another circuit and for the whole race at another circuit. How will you ensure that the right tyre is going to the right circuit in order for it to do 20 laps? Bearing in mind that you have little pre-season testing and no in-season testing with a contemporary F1 car. Also bearing in mind that the soft tyre and even the supersoft tyre are holding up well in the Monaco practice sessions. Talk of one stop strategies, even!

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Thanks. Well it begs the question, who will supply F1 if Pirelli do quit?

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by Marbot

20 laps approx, where? A tyre could last for 20 laps at one circuit, five laps at another circuit and for the whole race at another circuit. How will you ensure that the right tyre is going to the right circuit in order for it to do 20 laps? Bearing in mind that you have little pre-season testing and no in-season testing with a contemporary F1 car. Also bearing in mind that the soft tyre and even the supersoft tyre are holding up well in the Monaco practice sessions. Talk of one stop strategies, even!

So then a Mercedes might get through with 2 stops and win from pole and hamilton will be able to run flat out for the whole race!

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Marbot

20 laps approx, where? A tyre could last for 20 laps at one circuit, five laps at another circuit and for the whole race at another circuit. How will you ensure that the right tyre is going to the right circuit in order for it to do 20 laps? Bearing in mind that you have little pre-season testing and no in-season testing with a contemporary F1 car. Also bearing in mind that the soft tyre and even the supersoft tyre are holding up well in the Monaco practice sessions. Talk of one stop strategies, even!

I was speaking on average. So maybe 30 laps at Monaco, 15 laps at spa etc.

[jsTrecu]

Pirelli threatens to quit ? Do it already

FI opposing changes is not something I saw coming. They are having good performance but suffered a delaminated tyre in Spain. I mean, it's not like they have any chances of sneaking into the 4th place of the WCC even if Mercedes struggles the most. And McLaren will catch them sooner or later, no matter how the tyres are.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Unfortunately I can't access this page as I've used up all my free view for the month.

Never had a problem with their restrictions, maybe it's because I clear my browser cache everyday and switch off my cable modem some nights if I'm not seeding anything on my NAS. Just saying...

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

So then a Mercedes might get through with 2 stops and win from pole and hamilton will be able to run flat out for the whole race!

Not really. He could still be told, by his race engineer, to coast and cool his brakes. Brake and change gear at different points. Be told to conserve fuel, even though he's only about twenty laps into the race (remember that one?!), etc and so forth.

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I was speaking on average. So maybe 30 laps at Monaco, 15 laps at spa etc.

Chances are that is exactly what will happen anyway! I don't think that it's unreasonable to expect someone to do 30 laps, or more, on the soft tyre during the Monaco GP. I certainly don't think that it's impossible for someone to do 15 laps of Spa on one set of the current tyres!

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Unfortunately I can't access this page as I've used up all my free view for the month.

Delete cookies and clear cache, it will be fine...

[Armco Bender]

Pirelli try new compound formula for Monaco..

175 g butter, softened

1 cup sugar

3 eggs

3 tablespoons cocoa

1/2 cup boiling water

2 cups plain baking flour

1 teaspoon baking powder

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

Pirelli try new compound formula for Monaco..

175 g butter, softened

1 cup sugar

3 eggs

3 tablespoons cocoa

1/2 cup boiling water

2 cups plain baking flour

1 teaspoon baking powder

Very funny....

[jsTrecu]

Not a bad idea, that way at least the brave marshalls that go out there to pick up delaminated tyres now can just put them on a plate and have a delicious lunch