Did McLaren Screw Over JPM?

[alfasud]

It's only a pointless rule if you think safety cars are a pointless idea... but if you are going to have a safety car, then you probably need some sort of rule to stop cars racing through the pit exit and then braking hard when they slot into the queue behind... not to mention the drivers in the queue "defending" against the ones trying to overtake while slotting in from the pit lane (as we saw with JPM and DC).

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by knowlesy

NickoGP....in IRL, there are always issues with people overtaking wrongly under yellows. These are usually resolved before the green by race control.

The rule that befell JPM today is pathetic and needless.

This wasn't about overtaking under yellow - he would have been able to sort that out or get a drive through.

This was about exiting the pits when the red light was on - a fundamental no-no in any form of racing.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by NickoGP

I think it's for safety reasons and to stop the arguements like which would have happened as to whether DC or JPM was in front when he left the lane...
...

Yes, last thing you need is a hyped racing driver exiting the pitlane into the middle of a slow moving pack of cars behind a safety car. The red light seems perfectly sensible to me.

Incidentally, Nick, I think Adam was winding us up about the radio mix up ... er , at least, I hope so because, I couldn't stop chuckling for a few minutes.

[Nicholosophy]

Originally Posted by knowlesy

NickoGP....in IRL, there are always issues with people overtaking wrongly under yellows. These are usually resolved before the green by race control.

The rule that befell JPM today is pathetic and needless.

Well that's great that the IRL do that. I'm sure they have plenty of other rules to do with Safety Cars that would be useless in F1 as well. Isn't there a rule where you can't pit on the first lap after the incident - remembering that most if not all events are on an oval? Wouldn't work for F1. Two different types of racing series with different characteristics.

In any case, I'll agree to disagree, and leave it at that so that others can get their words in.

[Knowlesy]

Yes KB, I know that.

My issue is with the rule itself, which is somewhat pointless.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Incidentally, Nick, I think Adam was winding us up about the radio mix up ... er , at least, I hope so because, I couldn't stop chuckling for a few minutes.

Nope, that is what they said. http://f1.racing-live.com/en/headlin...12211319.shtml

[eatapc]

I never knew that the pit exit closes as the safety car and queue move by. I've never seen it, and it seems like a stupid idea to make cars sit there and overheat rather than rejoin the race. Derek Daly, who covered the race on U.S. TV, had apparently never seen it either. He commented that Montoya was correct in trying to slot in ahead of Coulthard when he exited the pits. When the black flag was announced, Daly was totally dumfounded.

The funny thing, when the safety car came out he said, Montoya is s...." and the network censors bleeped him. I wondered what he could have said to be bleeped. A few minutes later, after Montoya got the black flag, Daly said it again, but this time he wasn't bleeped: "I said earlier Montoya got screwed by the safety car, but I didn't realize how badly screwed. ...So you're telling me he wasn't allowed to drive out of the pit lane? Wow! ... How do you close the pit lane when the guy was leading?"

[2112]

Maybe McLaren was was afraid JPM would take Kimi out with a passing move.

[Paarma]

I'm surprised they didn't call Kimi in first. JPM was faster for most of the weekend but thinking about the wdc it seems a bit...naive. But if it would have been deliberate I'm sure they could have orchestrated something more convenient for the team, like a McLaren 1-2.

[Snrub]

Regarding the red light, of course that's a stupid rule. Champ Car racing on the same circuit has had no problem with cars merging back onto the track under a yellow behind the safety car. Both US OW series have done that rutinely and I can't think of a single time it was a negative issue.

Regardless, we all know one has to follow the FIA rules no matter how stupid, so it's JPM's fault for violating them. I don't know how obvious the red light is, so McLaren also should have advised him of it.

Originally Posted by ralf fan

The thing is just before the safety car Kimi had reduced the gap from 6 secs to 3.9 in 2 laps..... so Kimi couldve won anyway...

I don't know about that. JPM pulled the gap out to 6 seconds on Kimi when chasing Alonso and then started to give some of it up once he was comfortably in the lead with his teammate behind him. If I were to guess at the reason I'd say that he wasn't pushing as hard because he didn't need to.

[Sodemo]

Oh well, another JPM good result dashed.
Add it to the list Juan...

[Lucylu]

i think jpm is another DC, i dont really care what ron dennis says he does have fave drivers it was hakkinen and now its kimi...i dont think he called him in first but the radio should of been recorded so mayb we will find out!
im not surprised jpm went through the lights he is quite hot headed and was on a mission to get back in the lead, I think he didnt even see it and prob didnt even think aboutthe rules..it was his fault but the black flag did seem abit harsh

[Asp]

Originally Posted by Snrub

Regarding the red light, of course that's a stupid rule. Champ Car racing on the same circuit has had no problem with cars merging back onto the track under a yellow behind the safety car. Both US OW series have done that rutinely and I can't think of a single time it was a negative issue.

The reason for the rule is to stop racing under the SC conditions. It was clear that JPM was racing out of pit lane to get as far ahead as possible, and by the very nature of the race needing to be neutralised people shouldn't be racing.
I accept it works in American series, but there's a greater usage of Safety Cars, so the drivers know how it works better; and also with more caution periods, there is a greater mix of when cars are in the pits and on circuit, so there can be more merging and less of a long pack - merging behind one or two cars is much safer.

Regardless, we all know one has to follow the FIA rules no matter how stupid, so it's JPM's fault for violating them. I don't know how obvious the red light is, so McLaren also should have advised him of it.

As far as I remember it's a set of 3 very bright LED lights. Very visible lights, I'm assuming JPM had the red-mist over missing the pit call and was determined to get out. Perhaps thinking back on American SC rules and the open pitlane...

What I found interesting was that Ron didn't complain about the rule (which is logical, I strongly believe it's a sensible rule), but about the penalty not suiting the crime. I can't see how he thinks on this though - when there is a red light at the end of pit lane, access to the track is closed. If someone went onto the track after the end of the race when a red light was shown a serious penalty would be clearly expected - the circumstances are only slightly different to that.

[BootsOntheSide]

We see cars coming out fo the pits duelling for positions at much higehr speeds during open racing, and all the drivers kew that the incident causing the safety car was nowhere near the pitlane exit. Especially considering that the drivers don't have individual pit bays and pit stops, adn as such someone is always going to lose out unfairly, the draconian nature of the ruling seems unfair. Putting him to the back of the pack should've been a fair punishment, albeit an unfair outcome.

Also, it's fair to say that the well-clued-up Martin Brundle forgot all about the rule when the penalty was applied, so the team really should have reminded JPM of it as he left the pits, especially as ChamPCar racing has such a different (and much more rational) system.

As for the pitstops, the fact that JPm would mishear a ignal Kimi heard correctly seems like quite a coincidence. Maybe it's just bad luck, maybe there is something sinistair going on - the FIA need to investigate and monitor this, because any mroe team orders shenanigans wouldbe viewed much more grimly than the situation we saw today.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

As for the pitstops, the fact that JPm would mishear a ignal Kimi heard correctly seems like quite a coincidence. Maybe it's just bad luck, maybe there is something sinistair going on - the FIA need to investigate and monitor this, because any mroe team orders shenanigans wouldbe viewed much more grimly than the situation we saw today.

Remember one of most people's favourite McLaren theories came about from a misheard radio call.

And the FIA need to do nothing about it.

[Snrub]

Originally Posted by Asp

I accept it works in American series, but there's a greater usage of Safety Cars, so the drivers know how it works better; and also with more caution periods, there is a greater mix of when cars are in the pits and on circuit, so there can be more merging and less of a long pack - merging behind one or two cars is much safer.

(which is logical, I strongly believe it's a sensible rule), but about the penalty not suiting the crime. I can't see how he thinks on this though - when there is a red light at the end of pit lane, access to the track is closed. If someone went onto the track after the end of the race when a red light was shown a serious penalty would be clearly expected - the circumstances are only slightly different to that.

So essentially you're arguing that F1 drivers are stupidier than other drivers? In US OW there's often a long train of cars on different fuel stratagies so it's even more pronounced. Racing out of the pits under yellow can be an issue, but it's certainly not worse than racing to the pits or the heavy racing that goes on during a local yellow. Did you see that Minardi go off track 30 feet in front of the workers removing Trulli's car?!? THAT is the FIA's idea of safety. US OW would have had a full course caution for that. Also, in US OW the pits are closed for a lap when the full course yellow comes out to prevent drivers from racing hard under a yellow.

To me it seems like there's no question JPM shouldn't have violated the rule, that the rule itself is stupid and that the punishment was far to harsh.

[Adam43]

The pitlane/safety car rule is being discussed in its own thread here: http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70220

Thanks.

[eatapc]

Originally Posted by Asp

...I strongly believe it's a sensible rule....

I see absolutely no rational basis for the rule. Having a car sit in the pits for 10 or more seconds then sit at the pit exit for another 20 or 30 seconds is only asking for a big detonation a little later on.

Edit: Thanks for the heads-up about the other thread.

[Speed]

"Team chief Ron Dennis added, "Throughout the race we had to take some difficult decisions which only increased the pressure on the pitwall. Against this backdrop the mistake was made of not calling Juan Pablo in immediately after the deployment of the Safety Car which, of course, was only compounded by him driving through the red light."

http://www.f1racing.net/en/news.php?newsID=89351

[Bellof]

what about the scenario that mcl could have shortfueled monty, so that he could go out in front of the sc ?

[eatapc]

Dumb rule or not, it's too bad that Montoya and the team weren't aware that there would be an automatic red light, closing the pits. Obviously Montoya missed the light while looking at the traffic on the racetrack, but should he and the team have known the red light would be on anyway?

Montoya came in while leading behind the safety car. Apparently the team did not realize that the pit exit would be inevitably closed when Montoya tried to re-enter the race track. If either Ron Dennis or Montoya had been up on the safety car rules, wouldn't Montoya have stayed out as leader? I don't know. How much time do you lose by being sent to the back of the pack versus pitting under green as scheduled while everyone else pitted with the safety car out? And would they have risked the engine overheating from sitting idle at the pit exit? Did Dennis actually think they could refuel the car and beat the SC to the exit? If so, he was smoking something.

In any event, very bad luck for Montoya.

[Menelaos]

Could be that JPM missed it, or didn't hear it very well. It happened with Kimi in Monaco, if you remember.... So, maybe that's the case. I can't believe Ron Dennis would sacrifice 8 points just to give Kimi 2 more.

[Logrence]

Originally Posted by eatapc

Dumb rule or not, it's too bad that Montoya and the team weren't aware that there would be an automatic red light, closing the pits. Obviously Montoya missed the light while looking at the traffic on the racetrack, but should he and the team have known the red light would be on anyway?

The team know that rule and were reminded of it at the time by the FIA representatives - I think we can lay the blame squarely at Juan's feet.

[eatapc]

Originally Posted by Menelaos

I can't believe Ron Dennis would sacrifice 8 points just to give Kimi 2 more.

There's no way Dennis would do that. The Constructor's Championship is too important. It was just a bad show by the McLaren team -- which we've seen before. Ron Dennis can always figure out a way to lose points while having the best car. He's been doing it for years.

[eatapc]

Originally Posted by Logrence

The team know that rule and were reminded of it at the time by the FIA representatives - I think we can lay the blame squarely at Juan's feet.

I don't get the logic. If the team knows the rule, how can we blame Montoya? Are you saying they called Montoya in knowing that he'd have to sit at the end of the pit lane while the pack went by, that Montoya was advised of the red light, and that he went through it anyway in a fit of pique? Maybe I'm not following.