Bizarre Towing Incident with safety implications

[Hepatic]

Originally Posted by Yimkin

Hepatic,

Were you at Redgate? I was racing in Oldes but Goldies, but spectated for the 'Groovy Baby' from there - it was chaotic (from a driving POV) and looked *very* dangerous for marshalls - cars overtaking under waved yellows, spinning (nearly wrote sinning) under yellows, and even going off. Do you know if anyone got their knuckles rapped? Did any marshalls protest? I have to say that in many years of racing and spectating, that race from a Redgate POV made me realise the bravery/sheer daftness ;-) of marshalls more than any other.

Chris

I wasn't at Redgate, i was at the old hairpin. We had plenty to tow from there on Sunday and all went without incident. Glad to say we had loads of co-operation from all the drivers and it was nice to see those unfortunate enough to visit us were enjoying the racing as much as we were.

[PipSqueak111]

Regarding the strength of towing hooks/eyes, I will give a heads-up to recovery crews about the Vauxhall VX220/Opel Speedster. I have seen and heard several reports of the towing eyes failing on these. The VX isn't a very heavy car, but it seems Vauxhall/Lotus underestimated the towing forces required, as towing eyes have repeatedly bent or failed on them.

Don't know if the Elise suffers the same affliction?

Hopefully this warning will save some time and grief during recoveries if you come across a VX in distress.

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I believe that was a Formula First at Brands, but I'm prepared to be proved wrong.

I know it was'nt Brands where the driver lost his arm after the car rolled on the end of a tow rope, but again I don't know exactly where. It was probably just more than 10 years ago because I occasionally worked midweek test days at Brands in the early 90s. At that time you could be asked to do the recovery truck, something I particularly did'nt like, simply because I hade no real training on how to use it. Thankfully, there was always somebody else who knew how to use the lifting arm to put cars on the back of the flatbed or to assist in getting cars out the gravel.

However, I then had to drive the truck back to pits/paddock myself. The reason the tale of driver losing his arm sticks in my memory is that I brought a single seater back into the pits on the end of a long strop (probably becuse he'd been pulled out of a big gravel trap). As I entered the pits I was confronted by a very angry team manager/owner who tore into me for bringing a car back on a long strop. Apparently (if me memories are right after all this time), it was his driver who had the accident and (according to him) it was because of a long strop going slack and the car being towed running over it and getting the tow rope tangled up in a wheel. Truck pulls again, single seater overturned and was dragged with the resultant injury to the driver.
Nobody had told me about using as short a tow rope as possible.

[Stephen Green]

Why can't recovery crews use the metal bars that are used for towing road cars? That would make the problem of towing a car back to the pits/paddock (Once recovered from the gravel of course) easier and safer.

It should be in the Blue Book or series rules that no matter what car you drive, if you are being towed back to the pits/paddock you wear a crash helmet, suitable fastened, and seat belts suitable fastened. That would end all the arguements.

[Andrew Palmer]

The answer is really with the drivers. If they did not stop out on circuit for any reason and return to the paddock under their own power no more tows. SORTED

One other answer is no more tows, every thing is a full lift. Now the programs have to be changed to give longer breaks between races to cover this.

The final solution is again wih the drivers that they recover themselves. Look at the good points:
1) Driver walks to paddock picks up trailer and tow car returns to race vehicle at lunch or end of day.
2) Driver pushs own car without help to paddock but must keep off track and in a place of safety when track live.

Both of these would I believe stop drivers stopping on circuit for miner faults or passing the pit lane for one extra lap when they have a problem. Most circuits have space to park cars until the end of the day without returning them to the paddock or off track roads that could be used to return to the paddock.

[PVDA]

If you use a very short rope it encourages the driver being towed to pay attention as he/she doesn't want to run into the back of the vehicle doing the towing.

I don't know if it's started to appear up there but down here in the colonies a lot of cars are starting to appear with nylon tow strap loops fitted instead of solid metal tow eyes. Of course these straps disappear inside the bumper of the car as soon as it gets a tap from another car so you cant get to it in a hurry (like a hot track snatch out of a gravel trap mid race).

[scorch]

What happens when the recovery has more than 1 car on tow. they both cant have the short rope?

and i'm sure we could all think of at least one driver we would give a short rope to (espacally on the end of a long drop)

[Woolley]

There's also the problem of the truck with the new, slightly higher hi-ab and the bridge in the Donington pit lane. I still think that was funny.

[Hepatic]

Originally Posted by scorch

What happens when the recovery has more than 1 car on tow. they both cant have the short rope?

and i'm sure we could all think of at least one driver we would give a short rope to (espacally on the end of a long drop)

We had 2 cars on one tow at the weekend. Both had similar length ropes and as far as i know got back fine. They were both told to lightly apply the brakes and managed to steer to either side of the truck with no problems. The recovery vehicle was driving especially slowly to ensure both drivers could get back safely, prob about 15mph max.

[PapaJuliet]

So what should a marshal do when asked to sit in a car to steer it while on tow? As we all know, marshals tend to be built somewhat... larger... than drivers so most seat belts won't fit. (Hell, even some of the seats are a tight fit )

I was asked to help recover a Clio to the pits for BTCC Donington. Nobody mentioned seatbelts.

PJ

[Stone-kicker]

made me realise the bravery/sheer daftness ;-) of marshalls more than any other.

Should I take that as a compliment?
We did have a full gravel trap but we were working in the knowledge that we had a very slippery track and so acted accordingly (and safely).

It's a shame that the drivers apparently were not told about the track conditions and couldn't work it out for themselves.

[Sheila M]

Originally Posted by PapaJuliet

So what should a marshal do when asked to sit in a car to steer it while on tow? As we all know, marshals tend to be built somewhat... larger... than drivers so most seat belts won't fit. (Hell, even some of the seats are a tight fit )

I was asked to help recover a Clio to the pits for BTCC Donington. Nobody mentioned seatbelts.

PJ

That is a very good point PJ and I'm not sure what the answer is! Many years ago, when I was brave, I used to go out on the bank for Jim Russell days at Donington and I ended up being towed back in a single seater that had stopped out on the circuit. Not a pleasant experience, sitting in a windscreen-less vehicle, with all sorts of rubbish being thrown up in one's face - let alone the serious damage to the hair style .

[Hepatic]

I can't say it'd happen that often as most of the time the driver stays with the car, but yeah i guess we're breaking our own rules then. Whats' the chances of a spare helmet being left on each post, just in case?

...and for your information, i'm substantially thinner than most marshals out there and even i had trouble sitting in a mini!!!

[flagwaver]

Hepatic that could be taken as sizist (as we seem to have every kind of ist going)
A helmet on every post might be pushing it a bit, but see no reason why every recovery truck could not carry one.
I also see no reason why track recovery vehicles should not be licensed in the same way rally recovery units are.
That would at least set down a minimum level of equipment & training.

[Stephen Green]

Originally Posted by PapaJuliet

So what should a marshal do when asked to sit in a car to steer it while on tow? As we all know, marshals tend to be built somewhat... larger... than drivers so most seat belts won't fit. (Hell, even some of the seats are a tight fit )

I was asked to help recover a Clio to the pits for BTCC Donington. Nobody mentioned seatbelts.

PJ

After last years incident at Brands Hatch whenb the Caterham turned over whilst being towed, ALL marshals were informed by the BRSCC they were NOT to become drivers in towed cars. Either the race car driver stayed with the car or a recovery guy did the job. The alternative was the car was left in a 'safe place' at the edge of the track until the days activities were over.

It is worth mentioning that whilst we are struggling to get enough marshals to give adequate safety cover at some meetings, it would seem silly to use a valuable souce to become the driver of a car being towed, thus leaving the marshals crew short staffed. If the driver cannot be bothered to stay with his/her car until the end of the race, then retrieval of their car should not be made easy.

[Mark Mitchell]

Well said Mr G!

[Hepatic]

Sorry, didn't quite mean it like that. I was told at the weekend i needed "fattening up" by the other marshals on my post, hence the comment.

I found out just how thin you had to be when we had the mini roll at Donington the other month. After getting it back the right way up, we couldn't move it but wanted to get it nearer the track to allow the recovery truck to pick it up. We decided to squeeze me in to the driver's seat so i could attempt to steer it and keep the clutch down incase it'd got stuck in gear. I then discovered just how think some of the drivers actually are, as even i had trouble getting out again!

[wi11iamm]

Slightly off the topic of the thread...but does anyone know the rules for towing on the road. Age/Licenses needed e.t.c?

[Andrew Palmer]

Originally Posted by wi11iamm

Slightly off the topic of the thread...but does anyone know the rules for towing on the road. Age/Licenses needed e.t.c?

Yes!

I'll sort them out and PM you.

[Yimkin]

Originally Posted by Stone-kicker

Should I take that as a compliment?
We did have a full gravel trap but we were working in the knowledge that we had a very slippery track and so acted accordingly (and safely).

It's a shame that the drivers apparently were not told about the track conditions and couldn't work it out for themselves.

Yep, its a complement!

[N M Ramsden]

Going back to the original posting. I was at the scene and assisted during the whole rollbar/tow hoop incident. The driver was very very very insistant that we tied the rope/strap around the LEFT side of the hoizontal rollcage and also loop it around the LEFT upright. The driver was instructed to where his helmet and he acknowledged rather cockily that this was mentioned during some briefing. We also passed his seatbelts to him for him to fasten. Did he? I'm not sure. The incident was amusing and embarrassing but the driver Ed Reeves (I think) Has massive experience and should review the way he behaves behind a tow vehicle. Surely there is no one to blame but himself for his actions. Why oh why when you are being towed off the racing line you want to pull out as if to overtake. Surely straight tow says it all!!!!

[wi11iamm]

Originally Posted by Andrew Palmer

Yes!

I'll sort them out and PM you.

Cheers

[Andrew Palmer]

wi11iamm,

Please contact me with an email address and I'll send you the information you require.

[Woolley]

Of course, there's the Champ Car method of just wrapping it around and giving the driver the end to hold. If you get uncomfortable, let go.

If the driver is completely insistent that he knows best as has been suggested above, all the regs in the world won't help. Accident looking for somewhere to happen is the appropriate phrase, I think.

[deadsquirrel]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Of course, there's the Champ Car method of just wrapping it around and giving the driver the end to hold. If you get uncomfortable, let go.

Champ Car also have detachable end at the towtruck end - so you can ditch a stroppy driver round the back of the circuit somewhere!