New F1 Tech. Rules - Page 2

Dani Filth · 17 Sep 2002, 10:34 (Ref:382314)

change the rules to use 2 stroke engines .. and than you'll hear the noise ... and 19000rpm is gonna be noise whatever engine you use(exept maybe turbine) ..

Valve Bounce · 17 Sep 2002, 12:20 (Ref:382410)

Dani - we're trying to slow the cars down, not increase the noise

alfasud · 17 Sep 2002, 12:21 (Ref:382411)

Quote:

Originally posted by mr v
They may be about as "grippy" as the tyres of '97, but ask yourself, if development of those tyres in 1997 had carried on, how much more grip do you think that the tyres would give out today?

True, but that is not a "Return to slicks", that is a move to (not return) a new type of slick more grippy than has ever been seen before in F1. It seems that quite good racing was possible on those "old", not so grippy slicks, and for that matter in historics and other classes of cars that run a treaded/intermediate tyre.

What is needed (and maybe slicks do help here - I'm not a tyre expert) is a car that can race reasonably close behind another without worry about the dirty airflow and corner at a reasonably large slip angle (drifting).

As for speed and events of 8 years ago.... we have had more recent situations where flying wheels have killed track workers. The reasons are many, but if the wheel parts company with the car at 250km/h, that can't be as bad as if it were 350km/h. True, it's still bad if it hits you, but with less energy, there's a better chance that it never gets that far.

JohnSSC · 17 Sep 2002, 12:36 (Ref:382427)

Then maybe we need to take a step back here. This is F1 (F = Formula) so the teams design, build and prepare cars to go as fast as possible under the CURRENT formula. The formula has changed numerous times over the years. What we have now imho is cars that have pretty much tweaked the formula so far out that they are almost too fast for the tracks they run on. We can keep the technology so that F1 remains at the pinnacle (as it should be) - FIA (Bernie) should consider changing the formula itself.

I think what we are seeing now is a formula that is so tricked-out that only a couple of teams have the resources to even think about competing. No matter what the formula you know that Ferrari, McLaren and Williams will be in the thick of it but this may also give the smaller teams a chance to steal some points/podiums/wins.

That being said I think they need to do away with V-10 only (2.5 liter?), go to slicks, no refueling stops (I will watch NASCAR if I want to see races won/lost in the pits), halve the total aero surface and mandate monocoque construction that would provide better protection for drivers - particularly their legs/feet. For a start.

JAG · 17 Sep 2002, 17:02 (Ref:382623)

A loud noise, or should that be sound, there is a difference, is good. However the current V10s, while impressive in themselves do not sound good.

For example listen to the V12 in the Prodrive/Rafanelli Ferrari 550 in GTS and it is gorgeous. Then listen to the V10 in the Viper, I know its not the same as an F1 V10, but its still a V10 and it sounds terrible in comparision.

I read somewhere recently there is no logical reason for a V10, at least in a road car anyway. They said that a V8 or V12 covers all the bases. This article was in regard of the Porsche Carrera GT which has a V10 (desinged originally for a Le Mans prototype).

My preference would be a 2.5 V6 or more radically a turbo engine of either very low displacement or with an air restrictor (which admitedly goes against the spirit of F1).

After all having low capacity turbo engines 'could' help in the creation of low polluting road car engines which needs to be considered with the future environmental challenges road cars face.

slicktoast · 18 Sep 2002, 00:04 (Ref:382964)

Here we go (went) again. Banging a drum in a vaccuum.

The Other Chris · 18 Sep 2002, 00:18 (Ref:382975)

yeah i dont get the rule either of only v10's. if you think of it it would be dumb to bring it down to 2.5 liters because in 5-10 years the engines will be more powerful then they were before (case in point - 3.5 engines of '94 vs. 3.0 liter engines of today) i think slicks, slightly wider cars (no more than the old 2 meters) and less wing and no traction control would make it more exciting.

Red · 18 Sep 2002, 03:33 (Ref:383033)

Quote:

Originally posted by The Other Chris
yeah i dont get the rule either of only v10's.

That's not complicated. Some teams (Ferrari and Toyota) were already developing V12 engines. All of the others (FIA included) were afraid that everyone will have to follow the trend and the costs will go sky-high. They decided to limit the amount of cash injected in that area; or at least to allow them several more years to settle down (the ban will go in 2007). So actually you all propose to force all of them to build new engines?

Then again, may I point out that actually the sound of an engine is NOT the goal?

alchemy · 18 Sep 2002, 05:24 (Ref:383079)

Quote:

Originally posted by Red
What? Making noise? I suspect that Formula 1 is about cars that run fast not that make loud noise... but of course I might be mistaking...

As usual Red you miss quote me. The discussion was generating towards the noise of F1 cars being too loud. What I said in defence was:- "Isn’t this all part of what F1 is about?"

Notice the word PART. I didn’t say:- "Isn’t this all F1 is about?" …. Did I?

I happen to believe that many people (you’re obviously not one of them) happen to think an F1 car on full song is music.

Carry on drinking from that cup of mediocrity…..!!!!!

Red · 18 Sep 2002, 05:31 (Ref:383080)

Alchemy, yeah I noticed the word part. But you constantly refuse to answer. Is Formula 1 (part or in its entirety) about making noise? Please, try to give an aswer as you are a fully quallified insider.

By the way, why so many "ex"-es? Just curious.

alchemy · 18 Sep 2002, 06:20 (Ref:383090)

Quote:

Originally posted by Red
Alchemy, yeah I noticed the word part. But you constantly refuse to answer. Is Formula 1 (part or in its entirety) about making noise? Please, try to give an aswer as you are a fully quallified insider.

By the way, why so many "ex"-es? Just curious.

Red, I repeat. The noise factor is a part of what F1 is about. To elaborate…. I don’t know if you were around in the old F3 ‘screamer’ days. It was a 1000 cc four cylinder production engine formula, but with a modified downdraught head, breathing through a single choke carburettor. Unlike modern ‘flat’ sounding F3’s, because of their relatively generous venturi size to swept volume, they simply screamed! Of course it’s all relative. By today’s F1 standards they were ‘ticking over’! But as a youngster it made the old hairs stand up on the back of the neck.

On a technical theme. The exhaust noise factor of any internal combustion engine is mostly a function of how early or late the exhaust valves close A.T.D.C. (After Top Dead Centre). As a rule of thumb - the later it closes - the louder it is. A 2-stroke, because of the nature of how it works has a far later exhaust closing than a 4-stroke - hence the noise! Modern F1 engines are in fact quieter pro-rata compared to the old days. This is because of improved mixture/ignition control (engine management). The reason they sound louder is a function of the increased revs (some 200 bangs per second!). The old Cosworth 3 litre DFV Grand Prix engine peaked at some 11000 rpm! Some 7/8000 less than present days engines.

Revs = Power. The object of the exercise is to pass as much oxygen through the engine in the quickest possible time. It’s as simple as that!

Answering your question, "Why so many ex’s?" Simple Red - I like variety!

Red · 18 Sep 2002, 06:32 (Ref:383092)

This is last time: DO THEY HAVE TO MAKE AN ENGINE THAT PASS A "NOISE LEVEL TEST IF IT DOESN'T BLEED YOU EARS.... etc etc" or not? Do they have to design the engine to produce as much noise as they can and then pray that this will also produce some power or to make the engine revv higher and that in turn will produce more power (and a screaming sound as an effect)?

alchemy · 18 Sep 2002, 06:53 (Ref:383100)

To my knowledge there is no strict noise level requirement.

They make engines to produce power and are as fuel efficient as possible. The noise that comes from the exhaust pipe is incidental.

But all things being equal, the more gas you expand in a given amount of time, the more ferocious the noise will be.

Red · 18 Sep 2002, 07:05 (Ref:383112)

"The noise that comes from the exhaust pipe is incidental."

Finally.

alchemy · 18 Sep 2002, 07:10 (Ref:383116)

Yes (finally)

Jukebox · 18 Sep 2002, 08:12 (Ref:383146)

I am confused myself Red

hard for me too to relate with F1 V10 after reading the lengthy explanation he had made.

bingman · 18 Sep 2002, 08:49 (Ref:383164)

whats a V10?

Red · 18 Sep 2002, 09:13 (Ref:383176)

Juke, I believe that you complained already, in another thread about how difficult is to obtain information. Let's all consider ourselves fortunate to really have an insider among us, who's kind enough and willing to share wisdom...

alchemy · 18 Sep 2002, 09:24 (Ref:383184)

Quote:

Originally posted by bingman
whats a V10?

Ask Jukebox or Red. Apparently they both seem authorities on how to answer questions un-confusingly.

Red · 18 Sep 2002, 10:41 (Ref:383229)

Nah, don't do that! Actually we're completely unable to find the... waitaminute, I have to scroll...scuse me a second please.... uhh-huh.....mmm...Aah-hhA! got it!... As I was saying, we are completely unable to find the "does anybody know if there’s a ‘grown-ups’ version of 10 tenths?"

alchemy · 18 Sep 2002, 11:39 (Ref:383307)

No, but I’m working on it Red

Red · 18 Sep 2002, 11:43 (Ref:383311)

Aaaannnnnddd?!?!?

C'mon c'mon, the tension is killing me.

slicktoast · 19 Sep 2002, 00:10 (Ref:383814)

Could it be a 10 w/ a V in front of it?

alchemy · 19 Sep 2002, 04:04 (Ref:383859)

Quote:

Originally posted by slicktoast
Could it be a 10 w/ a V in front of it?

Is it something to do with the Germans? After all they developed a V1 and a V2 during World War 2. Maybe they went on to greater things with a V10?

PS. Is it possible to have a V1? Wouldn’t it be a \ 1?

Rennen · 21 Sep 2002, 23:57 (Ref:385638)

"Vengence 10"...what great name for a race engine!

P.S: Alchemy 10 Jukebox Nil

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