Driver No1 & No2

[Red]

I do believe that Rubens will retire before Michael does. Either way, being no.1 (or equal/whatever) at any other team doesn't get him any closer to the championship.

And it has been highlighted a couple times alreay, to believe that Ferrari issue team orders for Michael because of his blue eyes, and this is the reason why the others teammates he has had didn't win is just stupi.. I mean laugha... ermm, this is just not true.

[ljakse]

Originally posted by Red
I do believe that Rubens will retire before Michael does. Either way, being no.1 (or equal/whatever) at any other team doesn't get him any closer to the championship.

It sure doesn't now, but if he quitted instead of extending contract....just maybe....

Originally posted by Red
And it has been highlighted a couple times alreay, to believe that Ferrari issue team orders for Michael because of his blue eyes, and this is the reason why the others teammates he has had didn't win is just stupi.. I mean laugha... ermm, this is just not true. [/B]

I absolutely agree with this, and may I stress out - this is not about Schumacher!!! This is about Irvine, Barrichelo, or anybody else doing it in the future!!!

[Red]

Success means knowing exactly what your level is and getting the most of what's maximum possible. Trying and failing is not laudable, not trying and safely getting some easy results is not much better either. Perform precisely at 100% your potential. Not 99, not 101.

[Bononi]

Well, then RB doesn't know what is his level.

[ralf fan]

RB will probably get a drive in a team like JAG if he did not sign for Ferrari... he is too old to build at team around him and win a WDC with them...
at Ferrari he is guareenteed a few victories tons of podiums and a few poles... so why not.
I think one of the reasons he signed on with Ferrari is that he hopes that after 2004 MS says he has had enough and maybe he might get a No.1 spot..

my opinion is that this probably wont happen... because a young star like Alonso will be brought in to take over the team...
but i hope for RB that one day he does get the chance to to be No.1 at Ferrari and then we will know where he is at...

[Knowlesy]

I can never understand why RB consistently extends his Ferrari contract. I mean, he blabbers on about "one day, I will be champion, I truly believe that". Well not in your current team role you won't matey!

I agree that largely Schuey overshadows Rubens and so this makes him look even more like a willing number two than perhaps he is. But those who say he isn't a number two and has equal status.....well, why did he have to move over in race number 6 of the 2002 season.

It's things like this that make me lose a little respect for the people who sign these contracts.

If he's holding on for the Ferrari number one seat then he's got a long time to go. i suspect his hair will have gone grey by then. And Ferrari will probably sign a Schuey replacement rather than move RB to number 1 anyways!

Poor Rubens!

[Bononi]

Originally posted by knowlesy
If he's holding on for the Ferrari number one seat then he's got a long time to go. i suspect his hair will have gone grey by then. And Ferrari will probably sign a Schuey replacement rather than move RB to number 1 anyways!

Poor Rubens!

Rubens will be gone when TGF quits. Ferrari doesn't believe in #2s, and wouldn't risk a talent clash having a champion-in-the-making as #2. RB is the perfect #2 for TGF, and that's all. I bet they're planning to have Massa, Alonso or Webber for TGF's replacement.

[Dutton]

It seems to me that ll drivers will have a clause that says they must obey team orders.

Why would RB need anything more than that in his contract?

All Ferrari then have to do is use that clause, the same as all other drivers will have, the way they wish to use it.

It is not the contracted need to obey orders that is an issue, it is the way they are used that can be.

[Skam85]

Rubens probably signed up to Ferrari in the hope that in a 99-esque Michael abscence he will be given his chance. Unfortunately, since Rubens has been there Michael has been invulnerable.

[freud]

Bononi -

I am glad to hear the perspective of a brazilian f1 fan like yourself on the Rubens/Ferrari fiasco. And I cant agree with you more. Its a bit ironic that a driver whose idol was none other than the Maestro (Senna)is doing this to himself and his nation. No wonder why so many brazilians now look up to Montoya and Massa.

But as I said earlier.. lets not blame him! He's a pawn in the game. There are many others out there who will accept that position. Problem is Ferrari management. Its Luca, Todt, Brawn and co.

[Andrew2001]

Originally posted by Tiptop
Yes I completely agree why does Rubens want to be No 2 ?
He says that he is in a top flight team with the chance to win races (assuming Michael has problems)

He's also holding out to be No1 when Michael retires....although I think plenty of other drivers on the grid would do a better job.

Long ago I lost a lot of interest in F1 when we have No1 drivers being made to look good with an inadequate or very obedient No2 in the team!

Senna....v.....prost *sigh* seems so long ago......

Exactly. WAKE UP EVERYONE! We all are so used to Barrichello being Schumacher's slave that we have just ACCEPTED IT! WHY! This is NOT what should be goin on in F1, we should be entertained in watching the two Ferraris carve it up and head to head for the championship. Because, realistically, that is what is happening, at least, for the first half of this year, I believe it could well be more alive by the second half but by then it will be all over.

[Andrew2001]

Originally posted by Andrew2001
Exactly. WAKE UP EVERYONE! We all are so used to Barrichello being Schumacher's slave that we have just ACCEPTED IT! WHY! This is NOT what should be goin on in F1, we should be entertained in watching the two Ferraris carve it up and head to head for the championship. Because, realistically, that is what is happening (Ferrari with the best car I mean), at least, for the first half of this year, I believe it could well be more alive by the second half but by then it will be all over.

[fog_shadow]

Originally posted by freud
Its a bit ironic that a driver whose idol was none other than the Maestro (Senna)is doing this to himself and his nation. No wonder why so many brazilians now look up to Montoya and Massa.

oh dear me!! aren't we being a tad presumptuous my dear freud?

Originally posted by freud
But as I said earlier.. lets not blame him! He's a pawn in the game. There are many others out there who will accept that position. Problem is Ferrari management. Its Luca, Todt, Brawn and co. [/B]

oh! the drama!! what a wonderful if not hysterical performance.

shadow

[Red]

Andrew2001. What are you talking about? Ok, he might be no. 2, but no. 2 at Ferrari! Not for Williams, BAR or Renault. Not because of that did he come 4th in Malaysia or 6th in San Marino. Wake up!

[Bononi]

Originally posted by freud
Bononi -

I am glad to hear the perspective of a brazilian f1 fan like yourself on the Rubens/Ferrari fiasco. And I cant agree with you more. Its a bit ironic that a driver whose idol was none other than the Maestro (Senna)is doing this to himself and his nation. No wonder why so many brazilians now look up to Montoya and Massa.

But as I said earlier.. lets not blame him! He's a pawn in the game. There are many others out there who will accept that position. Problem is Ferrari management. Its Luca, Todt, Brawn and co.

Yes, I agree, but he could just shut up and do his job without trying to make up excuses for being a #2...

[freud]

Fog - next time please try to back up your assumptions with logic and facts..

Bononi - See poor Rubenho used to complain in 2002... I bet he was in denial then.. Have you noticed a change recently i.e. signs of acceptance of his lapdog status. He's been extremely calm in following and proctecting MS's back this season. The frustration is not there anymore... instead there is calm silence.

[fog_shadow]

freud,
actually i've never claimed to conduct an opinion poll in Rio to gather how the Brazillians feel about RB. i would be most interested however in seeing how you came to the conclusions that you so eloquently have stated in this thread.

shadow

[freud]

Originally posted by fog_shadow
freud,
actually i've never claimed to conduct an opinion poll in Rio to gather how the Brazillians feel about RB. i would be most interested however in seeing how you came to the conclusions that you so eloquently have stated in this thread.

shadow

I have come across many of these polls which have been conducted by brazilian newspapers. Logically can any brazilian be happy at their star driver following TGF like a dog since 4 years now?? I bet NO. Just ask Bononi.

[Gt_R]

Ahh....but then, can the brazilian win when he tries to snatch the crown from the german in a straight season fight? NO. And i honestly doubt anybody can.

It hurts, but the thing is that this season, in equal cars and equal terms (no team orders,no unfair treatment, as equal as any team had provided), MS produced 5 solid wins. Rubens can't match the wins, and only could come in 2nd twice.

Is the star driver following MS "like a dog". No..he drove the best he could but just couldn't bring the fight...and naturally, nobody like to see their local stars being beaten. Ask the Australians about Webber, ask the spanish about Alonso...

[ljakse]

Originally posted by Gt_R
Ahh....but then, can the brazilian win when he tries to snatch the crown from the german in a straight season fight? NO. And i honestly doubt anybody can.

Fair enough, but, how about 'just go racing karts'????

[Gt_R]

i figure Juan will NEVER quit F1 for Karts, even if it means being a "supporter" of someone else he'd miss those pennies he earn from F1.

[freud]

Originally posted by Gt_R
Ahh....but then, can the brazilian win when he tries to snatch the crown from the german in a straight season fight? NO. And i honestly doubt anybody can.

It hurts, but the thing is that this season, in equal cars and equal terms (no team orders,no unfair treatment, as equal as any team had provided), MS produced 5 solid wins. Rubens can't match the wins, and only could come in 2nd twice.

Is the star driver following MS "like a dog". No..he drove the best he could but just couldn't bring the fight...and naturally, nobody like to see their local stars being beaten. Ask the Australians about Webber, ask the spanish about Alonso...

You dont get the point.. Rubenho is NOT allowed a straight fight! He just cannot do it. Even a mechanic working at minardi knows that.. pity you dont.

[Gt_R]

I think you miss the point.

Ok, let's say Ferrari doesn't allow RB to fight MS...then explain why on earth dear Rubens didn't finish 2nd in all 5 races which his teammate won with ease? I'm sure even the mechanic working at Minardi knows that Todt didn't forbid RB to race Button/JPM in Sepang nor in Imola.

The important question is, given the "permission" (as the people insist), can RB beat MS to the championship? Doing the simple mathematics this year, and the previous few if you bother tells you one simple trend. No.

Again, i won't deny that Ferrari employ team tactics. But that's just like what anybody else had done or would have done. Ferrari did not give Rubens a car lesser than MS, and RB has his own engineer to oversee and assist RB. RB's had came out before saying that there is a clause in both driver's contracts stating that the drivers are obliged to follow team orders, but none that states that RB had to drive behind MS right from race 1. And mind you, there's a difference. And mind you, that's a clause that every other team employs.

Recent Ferrari's alleged tactic doesn't take a scientist to figure, in a season, whichever driver start to show that he's clearly ahead of his teammate with a clear shot of the WDC would be assisted by his teammate when required...and both won't be made to risk the team's results in a race.

MS benefitted from this policy simply because every year, this year seem so far not to be an exception, MS had clearly outperformed RB - despite RB being a good driver on his own. And in the rare situation that MS is behind his teammate, as in 1999, MS is made by Ferrari to assist his teammate just like how others have aided.

If it's in the contract that the 2nd driver isn't allowed to challenge MS, i'm sure MS could easily threaten to sue Ferrari for breach of contract in Sepang, or sue RB for all the races which RB came first and MS behind...

And yes, do talk on behalf of the mechanic working at Minardi..i'm sure he appreciates it.

[Armco Bender]

I find it amusing people can't get their heads around the No2 concept.Its not hard,its a team sport,No1 is picked to win and No2 covers his a$$.Its a bit like soccer,the striker gets all the glory and the goal keeper covers his a$$.
Ruebens is the greatest No2 driver off all time.
Some of the other great No2's,Mass to Hunt,Peterson to Andretti,Regazonni to Lauda,Cevert to Stewart and on it goes.Spare a thought for the No2's of the '50s they often got called in and the No1 took over their car to finish the race in.

[freud]

Originally posted by Gt_R
I think you miss the point.

Ok, let's say Ferrari doesn't allow RB to fight MS...then explain why on earth dear Rubens didn't finish 2nd in all 5 races which his teammate won with ease? I'm sure even the mechanic working at Minardi knows that Todt didn't forbid RB to race Button/JPM in Sepang nor in Imola.

The important question is, given the "permission" (as the people insist), can RB beat MS to the championship? Doing the simple mathematics this year, and the previous few if you bother tells you one simple trend. No.

Again, i won't deny that Ferrari employ team tactics. But that's just like what anybody else had done or would have done. Ferrari did not give Rubens a car lesser than MS, and RB has his own engineer to oversee and assist RB. RB's had came out before saying that there is a clause in both driver's contracts stating that the drivers are obliged to follow team orders, but none that states that RB had to drive behind MS right from race 1. And mind you, there's a difference. And mind you, that's a clause that every other team employs.

Recent Ferrari's alleged tactic doesn't take a scientist to figure, in a season, whichever driver start to show that he's clearly ahead of his teammate with a clear shot of the WDC would be assisted by his teammate when required...and both won't be made to risk the team's results in a race.

MS benefitted from this policy simply because every year, this year seem so far not to be an exception, MS had clearly outperformed RB - despite RB being a good driver on his own. And in the rare situation that MS is behind his teammate, as in 1999, MS is made by Ferrari to assist his teammate just like how others have aided.

If it's in the contract that the 2nd driver isn't allowed to challenge MS, i'm sure MS could easily threaten to sue Ferrari for breach of contract in Sepang, or sue RB for all the races which RB came first and MS behind...

Matter of the fact is that MS has broken all records in the books and a lapdog has greatly helped. Hasnt it been for the lapdog, MS might have won 10 less GPs or would've gotten 15 less poles!! you never know what would have happened if he'd driven with a competitive teammate.. NUFF SAID. My last post in this thread.