The Historic Racing Season; which car(s) would you choose?

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

Re costs - I would be happy to be corrected on this, mind you I cant think which tin top ran a 70's twinkie....

Er. TC = Touring Car

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Er. TC = Touring Car

oops!
I just assumed that as technology moves on so does cost!

[Peter Mallett]

The Essex V6 is a 1960's design. The only cost difference to (say) Zef's four pot would be the extra cylinders.

We can run electronic ignition and stuff like that but a balanced pre '66 dizzie is not cheap either.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Famous Driver's Excuses.

So lets go to Snett or Thruxton and hear your FDF then

[zefarelly]

I think Simons general comment was that more 'specialised' equipment was used later on ( ie late 60's and 70's) which can be expensive to replace and maintain now due to the quantities originally made) whereas a lot of std parts where used pre66 for Touring cars (only) Having said that if you want to be at the dicey end you can easily spend a fortune in any series or formulae.

I agree with Peter, his car needn't be any more expensive than mine, BUT I reckon a Cologne Capri or batmobile would be a lot more than a MK1 Lotus Cortina for example.

[Al Weyman]

Well if it is a cost thing the Camaro I am afraid still wins hands down. I can build a 500bhp V8 Small Block engine far cheaper than either a Twin Cam and maybe even a full house Kent. All Alloy Big Block may be a different kettle but still well under 10k.

[zefarelly]

Al

I was under the impression yank v8's where cheap . . . .until I asked someone who actually races (pre66) ford V8's. the reality for them couldn't be further from the truth. trus TC's aren't cheap in period spec full race trim, but if you build them to more relaxed spec they are a lot cheaper, my guess is the same applies for V8's, use newer bits and its cheaper than top spec period bits ???

I could build you a 200 BHP+ NEW Lotus TC for less than a 170 BHP pre66 to FiA spec

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

So lets go to Snett or Thruxton and hear your FDF then

Last time at Thruxton I was IIRC around fourth fastest lap. As I said I'm not a very quick driver.

[simon drabble]

Zef is right - if a car is prepped to exact FIA spec its never cheap - which is all rather ironic as it means the cheats have had the double benefit of spending less money!!

[zefarelly]

not necessarily Simon, I think some people use it as a license to print money, if you know what you want with out using the dreaded letters or 'trade names' the price usually drops

for example . . .a set of Lotus cortina FiA legal brake discs . . . . £50

set of standard girling 9" discs (for an Austin All aggro of all things ) . . . £20


same thing !

its not always the case, but it pays to shop !

[simon drabble]

I hope you are right!!!!!!!!!!

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Last time at Thruxton I was IIRC around fourth fastest lap. As I said I'm not a very quick driver.

Last time I was out in my prehistoric car at Thruxton about 10 years ago in the ModProds I stuck it on pole only for the heavens to open on the first lap of the race then I almost stuck it into the barriers

Oh Zef we were talking Chevys here not Ford V8's, a mile of difference mainly cause the Chevy has a proper head design as it came of the production line unlike the Ford and parts are generally a lot cheaper as the engine is a lot more tunable and therefore popular. Also I am talking about screwing the thing together myself and not paying fancy money for someone else to.

[zefarelly]

I screw mine together too . . no one gives me fancy money either !

I know not of the intricacies of either V8, but I do know modern Ford heads are better and cheaper than original ones. whilst they may be big by our standards theyre just shopping cart engines in the US so theres no real need for them to be over pricey, as opposed to delicate exotics like Alfa twin sparks !

[simon drabble]

a GTam head (if you can find one) is in the region of EUR 10 000, probably why I am now a Dagenham/Norfolk boy rather than a Milanese as before!!

[Peter Mallett]

Trouble is that one or two Mustang owners discovered the Ford Motorsport block. As the name suggests it's the mutt's nuts if you want to go for max power and higher revs etc. They started producing it around 1970. The price of one of these blocks is somewhat alarming by normal standards.

[Al Weyman]

Where as the Chevy equivilant is very reaonable as are 4 bolt main blocks and steel cranks that are fitted in nothing more exotic than a truck! Also the Chevy Camel hump heads from the 60's are a very good piece and I picked up a couple of F5000 ones fully flowed and modified and in good condition for £200 (thats a pair not each)! Chevy also have the legal Bowtie heads from the same era and I use them on my period piece and they come from the factory virtually modified as is, they will stand a good bit of porting though to make them even better. the standard Chevy rods are steel and can be completely twisted 180 degrees without snapping (see test in Vizards book) but the factory also did a 'Pink' rod that is even stouter.

The only thing that does annoy me though ith this so called Historic racing at least appertaining to the Mk 1 Camaro and that s the use of the Bowtie competion block which can be bored to 4.25" instead of the normal 4" and gives a capcity of 6.2 Litres and as i understand it is how many (most) of these are run, How can that be right when the 4.25 blocks were never about in those days and were max usable capacity of 5.7, also this configuration is very over square and the route for awesome BHP>

[zefarelly]

So using 'family' parts (a condition I disagree with) means everyone is quicker, and cheating !

[Peter Mallett]

Taking this from my perspective I could conceivably run a Group 2 Capri with a 4.6 litre Explorer fuel injected V6 because it's actually the 2.9 Cologne, bored and stroked. Hmm, that sounds like serious fun!!!!!!

[Al Weyman]

So just why are they allowed to run these 6.2 litre engines? Seems to make a mockery of 'Historic' racing to me.

[Peter Mallett]

That's the point they can't and they don't. But if you use the "family parsts" approach you could conceivably do so. That was what Zef mentioned.

[Al Weyman]

I think you may find they do if not they certainly have in the past I have seen it openly declared so must be or have been legal. There was never a 4.25" bore block produced apart from the 400ci truck block so how do they get away with that or are they allowed to overbore what ever they like? All makes a bit of a mockery of it all, the cc should be pegged at what the vehicle was produced with in period with a repair overbore, end of story, maybe I should write the rules for them

[R59]

So my Dart block won't be welome then...

Any road up, back to the origin of the thread.

I would choose a Gordon Keeble, or better still, a nice Rolls Royce Silver Cloud. You did say that money was no object. Class. Mmmmmmm.

[John Turner]

You'd actually race a GK or Silver Cloud? Interesting choices!

[simon drabble]

the Rolls Silver Shadow rally car that did the London Peking is on ebay current bid £2k - very tempting to have as teh ultimate race tender!! A friend of mine had a Silver Cloud as his race tender in the early 70's - it was infamous and covered in race stickers. Sadly I had heard the latest owner is "restoring" it

[zefarelly]

Theres nothing better to see on the road than a tatty roller, a rare sight!

at the other end of the spectrum, I saw an immaculate (ie showroom) 1968 Renault 4 near my house yesterday, I'd imagine it was original and just never driven, I can't imagine why you'd restore one !