The merits of Sauber (Are there any?)

[Minardi fan]

Like Minardi and Jordan, they love racing. So they're average, but on the occasions that they shine, it puts a big smile on my face.

[shiny side up!]

Originally posted by Kicking-back
But Sauber are never going to win if they're heavily reliant on Ferrari input, which they may or may not currently be.

That is hard to argue with, you are rarely, if ever, going to beat the team that you buy last year's parts from...

But Sauber is a long way from seriously challenging Ferrari. They are fair way from seriously challenging for podiums. Maybe when they start to approach Ferrari's pace and reliability they should put some effort into figuring out how they will beat them. Until then...

[Hugh Jarce]

Well some good and fair points there!

Just to maintain perspective from my point of view - they used to be equal / ahead of Renault and now are trailing them by a fair way.

They will lose ground to Toyota soon. I'd stake dosh on that.

I still reckon they should be doing better with the 'hand-me-downs' they get.

[Kicking-back]

Particularly with those tyres.

[Tweed]

Can't really understand it. Same engine as Ferrari, same gearbox, same tyres, same back-end, the ( according to some ) 'second-fastest man in F1', and they're way off the pace.

[Hugh Jarce]

So, then what's the mystery - why only midpack?

[Tweed]

I would love to launch into a long ramble about Ferrari bending the rules and being in-kahoots with the FIA, but...

I have no idea. Electonics??

[Hugh Jarce]

Don't go there!

It just goes to show having the right kit isn't the whole deal. I think Dave Richards has made some comments along that line in the last day or so.

Perhaps the blue and green paint is significantly thicker and heavier than the red!

[alesi95]

Despite having never had any type of Works backing. (Ford and Mercedes deals were only fleeting partnerships.) Sauber hav consistantly fought for the postions at the lower end of the top six/ten since their envolvement in F1. No other team outside the big four can boast this. Not even B.A.R or Jordan.

[mjolnir]

hmm... they'r in a catch-22 situation if u ponder over it - if they'r as good as a front running team, would ferrari support them at all (ie, pete can challenge the likes of ferrari themselves on a considerably smaller budget, with last yr's parts, ferrari'd lose face, non?)?

[nkh]

The Ferrari engine is probably the best costumer engine out there for now (let's think... Ford... even older Ford... yes, it must be).. So they can't really go any futher until they get a works engine from someone (VW, as I don't see any other car makers with the resourses to go into F1). Jordan looked good with the Honda so it can be done.

I assume this years Ferrari clone is just an in-between car while they're getting their windtunnel up and running so it can be used on the 2005 car. If they continue with Ferrari clones I don't really see the big point in building that tunnel...

[Glen]

I can't understand why you guys seem to find it so puzzling: Same engine, tyres, transmission, chassis (well almost) as Ferrari... what is the biggest difference between Ferrari and Sauber? A really big difference? No - not Michael. Money.

Ferrari don't spend over $100M more than Sauber on nothing - tey spend it on testing and development which gives them seconds per lap.

It isn't the engine. Put it this way - if Ferrari were to run Sauber engines would they fall to mid-pack? Of course not - engine power is not by a long way the most influential factor over lap time.

[Kicking-back]

Indeed. Look at the comparative performances of Ligier and Williams in 1993/94.

[RWC]

Sauber were going downhill after a good start to the year(as they allways do!),but this year they have FINALLY got their wind tunnel opperating so they will now continue to make slow steady progress.Peter sauber metioned this very thing recently in an interview

The future is promissing but unfortunately still rather dull compared to other teams
The one and only big jump sauber have made was due to the huge weight loss program they had in 2001(?)-usually their results that year are wrongly attributed to the twin keel design but it was the sudden drop in weight and the resulting ballast they could use that made the difference.
Identical to Stewart in 99(?) in fact

[Gt_R]

Quote:"They remain mid-pack year after year."
Minardi/Jaguar/Jordan/Toyota remain at the rear year after year.

Quote:"They have last year's Ferrari, which should be right up there but is underperforming."
They don't have "last year's Ferrari". They have customer engines and some parts, plus a car designed as close as Sauber could to be like Ferrari. But it's the details that can't be copied that makes a difference, because it's a Sauber afterall.

Quote:"They don't seem to communicate a passion to improve / win."
At least they don't make empty promises to bring the WDC/WCC crown, then fall flat on their faces.

Quote:"No-one ever seems to want to interview them!"
Hmm...strange, i remember reading quite a few articles on Peter Sauber, his team, his new windtunnel, his team's demo trips in Malaysia and China roads.

Quote:"They normally get drivers who have nowhere else to go!"
And they also get drivers that other teams later fight for. See Kimi/Fisi.

Quote:"They don't have the charisma of other 'lower' teams like Jordan, or even Minardi, which makes them attractive in the paddock."
I don't understand the attraction of teams that would twist their teams just to get pay drivers, who ***** about lack of money, who had done nothing to significantly improve their "attractiveness" to investors, and i don't find that charismatic.

Like it or not, Peter Sauber had done a great job in being the best non-works privateer team in the paddock for years after years...and that in itself is a huge merit.

It isn't easy to convince a big engine maker to supply good engines, it isn't easy to create a stable team backed by loyal sponsors and partners, it isn't easy to finance world-class facilities in a bid to fight the big-boys, and it isn't easy for a privateer team to survive in this manufacturer-dominating series.

[Logrence]

Originally posted by Hugh Jarce
So, then what's the mystery - why only midpack?

Because they don't have the people.

You've got the drivers and Peter Sauber - name as many people as you can who work at Sauber.

I can't think of anyone. Sergio Rinland sprang to mind, but he was a few years back...the last good car they built, actually.

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by RWC
Peter sauber metioned this very thing recently in an interview

Hmmm, somebody interviewed Sauber? Must have been a slow news day...

[Hugh Jarce]

GP - sad but true!

That's the thrust of what made me stick this thread up - to me the team just seems to lack some of the qualities that you expect in F1.

[Kicking-back]

Anonymity and neutrality.

Two of the great things about Switzerland.

But I don't know they're such great traits for an F1 team!

[Hugh Jarce]

Interesting!

The IT company I used to work for was a 'pumped-up' US outfit and they moved the Europena technical excellence centre to Neuchatel in Switzerland.

Switzerland - Lovely looking, clean image, inherently rich, relaxed but quite boring and the general lack of passion. A bit of a stereotype - but not a gross one.

Is that Sauber?

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally posted by Hugh Jarce
Switzerland - Lovely looking, clean image, inherently rich, relaxed but quite boring and the general lack of passion. A bit of a stereotype - but not a gross one.

Is that Sauber?

To the letter, yes. They certainly seem to do a good job with what they've got though.

[Gt_R]

Once again, people criticise Sauber for "lack of passion" simply because they are not "LOUD" enough..not in the mold of Jordan (or rather, the Jordan of the past).

Tell me how Sauber lacks passion when compared to the likes of the modern jordan/minardi who's loud when complaining about funds, and how Sauber's passion lack when compare to the likes of Jaguar.

Instead, if people take a moment and look at the job Sauber had done, they had managed to put together a good job without the fuss and attention of their immediate rivals. They simply get on with their stuff and focusing on their needs instead of parading around the press.

Give any driver a choice of which non-works team to drive for, and Sauber would top their list. I think that's a better indication of the merits of Sauber.