Photo's for nothing?

[Snapper Baz]

That is one heck of a lot of money-I hope you got something out of it! Is there anything in the USA/Canada like our RAC MSA passes? Basically if you can submit to the RAC proof that you covered at least 8 (I think) different meetings which clearly shows your name on then you will be issued a pass which you can fax/quote to various circuis in advance and they send you all the required passes for that meeting-it saves trying get a season pass for each circuit and all the press officers at all the circuits have all your details. It can make life a bit easier. Changing the subject a little-it doesn't matter what equipment you have-its how you use it! I started things off with a Praktica and cheapish lenses and got some excellent pictures in both motorsport and aviation-one helicopter magazine went as far as to say they were the best quality pictures that someone had supplied to them! So to ask when is an amature a professional or when is a professional an amature? Would that be a professional using amature equipment and getting excellent results or a proffesional constantly producing rubbish work with expensive gear (and I KNOW there are plenty of them about)...a difficult question!

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by Snapper Baz
That is one heck of a lot of money-I hope you got something out of it! Is there anything in the USA/Canada like our RAC MSA passes?

A two-part answer: I didn't get anything more out of it than I put into it! (ie I didn't pay that money) I didn't look on Sunday, but I can tell you that those towers were empty all day Friday and Saturday.

Of course, CART's waiver would preclude me from selling as a freelance, so if I had a market, that might become worthwhile. (Yeah, right.)

On the second one, I don't know whether there are multi-facility passes, as my interest is limited to two facilities - and really only one is permanent and has more than one event I'm interested in - and has terrific GA access as it is.

[Jay]

That's true, there's one self proclaimed "pro" photographer who I won't name (used to be a member here, caused Ten-Tenth's a ton of trouble and threatened to file a complaint about the site because of a joke a member made by a member about sneeking into the paddock...)..who gets credentials somehow to F3 races, etc...apparently has a wealth of equipment...yet his photos are absolute . Most amateurs could do better with a disposable camera from the drug store. He must give his photos away, or I don't see why anyone would take them.

You can do a lot better than most people think with a cheap P&S actually... I had some really good panning shots with my old one...unfortunately I didn't have photo access so there was usually a fence in teh way.

[MolsonBoy]

My goal with champweb's image gallery is to give talented ametuers or semi pros the opportunity to shoot a major motorsport event. An event that they would not normally be able to do without being affiliated with some sort of news agency. My hope is that these photographers get the access to produce images for a portfolio and make contacts that may lead to a career as a motorsports photographer.

Offering the photographer this opportunity in exchange for the credentials is all I have to offer. The only other thing I can offer is to list the photographers name, contact info and encourage the site's visitors to contact the photographers and use them for any photography that they need.

[Jay]

seriously Molsonboy, I think what you guys do is really great for amatuers who want to get started! It's almost impossible to break into motorsports photography unless you know how to get credentials - as let's face it, at most Cart/F1 events you are nowhere without credentials. Keep it up!

[MolsonBoy]

Thanks Jay. I was once in the same position. No accreditation and no portfolio. Sometimes you need a hand and push in the right direction.

Even though I have asked people to shot for no pay I do agree with the first post in this thread. Magizines that can afford to pay should pay. If they only used free images then there would be no work for anyone. This is the main reason that many photographers have stopped shooting motorsports.

[Snapper Baz]

Molson Boy, I think your idea is very worthy-and as I said, if it helps someone to get their foot in the door then great. I wonder why the Champcar magazine stopped (edited by J.Shaw-who does lots of tv commentary)...whether sales were down or advertising was down ...who know's but it was an excellent magazine. Does anyone know if a US' magazine by the name of "Open Wheel Racer" or something like that is still in existance? I'd be greatful for any news.

[paul-collins]

Naw, we've only got Racer here these days. If you want news that's not a month or more old, you have to get Autosport if you can believe it.

In Canada there's Inside Track (biweekly, supposedly, but they've bundled issues a few times this spring) and PRN (monthly).

Of course, if you want up-to-date NASCAR print news, you can get it pretty much anywhere.

[Jay]

To be honest, I've pretty much given up on the print media... almost everything that's there is on the web, and usually seconds old as opposed to weeks. I just looked at the latest issue of Autosport available here and they have British GP Preview (I know there's a later one, but this Canada)... hmm.

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by MolsonBoy
Offering the photographer this opportunity in exchange for the credentials is all I have to offer. The only other thing I can offer is to list the photographers name, contact info and encourage the site's visitors to contact the photographers and use them for any photography that they need.

Certainly the offer of access and experience was enough for me. I'm very happy with how it turned out. It's now on to the 5 year plan to upgrade my equipment and hone my skills...

[vwpilot]

MolsonBoy

I just want you to know that I am not criticizing your site or what you are doing, I think its cool that people get a chance to do something they normally cannot. The site is obviously not taking away business from the working pro either, so thats not a huge issue.

However, the way of thinking (not saying your site or you) by just using shots for free can and has lead this industry on its way down a possible slippery slope. If more organizations or publications took that point of view it would certainly spell doom for the working photographer. Its dangerous when that way of thinking spreads and is hard to overcome.

That was my main point. I have had webmasters for drivers ask me to use images for free, when I say I charge $x they go looking till they find the free shots. This sucks because I know the webmaster is working for free and the driver is sure as hell making enough money to pay me for a couple of shots. It seems that everyone thinks the photographer should be the only one not making money, and thats sad.

This is the attitude that has started to permeate the business and industry, so everyone just really needs to be careful about what they do.

[Snapper Baz]

What makes things even more gauling is a "very average" photo coverage in Autosport of major events ie: GP's, Touring Cars etc produced by the supposed "stars" of the photographic world of today...nothing winds me up more when you see some of the pics they (the art editor apparently)pick for the mag. Many, Many years ago I was asked to see the editor as I was in the frame (good pun eh!)for being their photographer but Martin Elford got the job (apparently he had got it before I went along!)and now look what he's doing!! Oh well, I'll just have to keep snapping away...hopefully might do an IRL race next year (Pikes Peak) and/or a NASCAR round-time will tell...and the pictures will NOT be given away!!!

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by vwpilot
However, the way of thinking (not saying your site or you) by just using shots for free can and has lead this industry on its way down a possible slippery slope. If more organizations or publications took that point of view it would certainly spell doom for the working photographer. Its dangerous when that way of thinking spreads and is hard to overcome.

That was my main point. I have had webmasters for drivers ask me to use images for free, when I say I charge $x they go looking till they find the free shots. This sucks because I know the webmaster is working for free and the driver is sure as hell making enough money to pay me for a couple of shots. It seems that everyone thinks the photographer should be the only one not making money, and thats sad.

For that matter, why do we assume that the websites should be free as well? I mean, I understand the promotional ones need to be (such as IMSA's site, or, say, a driver's site or team's site) but the ones which are there simply to provide original content, either news or editorial (whether written or graphic) are media, not advertising.

[vwpilot]

I dont assume they should be free. I think its great when one can provide something for free, such as this site, but I dont get my panties in a bunch if there is a site that is not. Go for it. If you can provide something someone is willing to pay for, more power to you.

Not sure what that has to do with this thread, but thought I would answer your question.

[vwpilot]

OOps, I want to edit my above post.

I meant to say the webmaster is NOT working for free. This was to point out the photographer shoudnt be working for free either.

Just wanted to clarify that point from above.

[ss_collins]

Ok.. On a book using about 30 pics from one snapper (nut around anothe 70 by others) how much should the snapper who did 30 odd expect to get from the writer who himself would only be getting 10% or therabouts from the publisher?

[Tim Falce]

I found some of my pictures on another 10-tenthers site today. He never asked permission to use them. I don't object, but it would be courteous to ask and also give me a credit for them on his site. That way more people may go to my site, which helps me.

[Craig]

Originally posted by vwpilot
OOps, I want to edit my above post.

I meant to say the webmaster is NOT working for free. This was to point out the photographer shoudnt be working for free either.

Just wanted to clarify that point from above.

They are not always paid either, you know! Often they will simply get some free tickets to a few of the rounds in exchange or maybe they're looking for something for their CV. Same as you snappers really - have to start somewhere!

[Jay]

Actually, most webmasters I know (that aren't lookign after Autosports site or Cart.com) aren't paid...or if they do get any revenue it goes straight back into the site (ie server equipment, etc).

[vwpilot]

Originally posted by Jay
Actually, most webmasters I know (that aren't lookign after Autosports site or Cart.com) aren't paid...or if they do get any revenue it goes straight back into the site (ie server equipment, etc).

Well, if that is the case than its just as sad as the photography industry. There is no reason that a driver making six figures cant pay to have a website and pay those that provide it for him.

[Jay]

I'm not talking about drivers websites...most of those are payed for one way or another.

I was referring to the websites that provide coverage of a series, for example this one, champweb.net, racerchicks.com, racinglines.com, or the one I usually write for rfmsports.com. None of those webmasters are paid for their work and are simply doing it because of their love of the sport (same reason many photographers give photos away). Any revenue these guys make is undoubtably thrown right back into the site. Most of them can barely afford the server space, nevertheless paying for top line photography, when they can settle for less than teh best for nothing.

That said, I'm noticing a lot of teams are offering journos free photos now...don't even have to ask...they give them to you.

[vwpilot]

Oh, ok. I had talked about a driver not wanting to pay for photos for his site, and then I saw your post and thought we were still talking about that. My mistake.

Agreed on the other points about motorsports websites.

Yes, most top teams do provide photos for media. These are provided to the media from the photos that they paid a photographer to take for them.

[Craig]

I can guarantee you that this site is paid for out of my own pocket so, when someone offers some help, whether financially or by way of a few free photos or some of their time I rarely turn it down. Does that make me a bad person? Should I be paying them? Earlier on in this thread it was suggested if we can't afford to pay for this sort of thing we should manage without - I can't agree with that I'm afraid. Because if we tried to manage without, we wouldn't, and the boards would have been up a long time gone.

In another life I work for a team in the BTCC running their website and, admittedly not this year, doing some PR work and press releases. I do not get paid for this - apart from a season ticket for the series in which the teams compete. Additionally I am currently setting up a site for one of our drivers - again no payment - but this time a few stickers on the car.

In both of these cases I have had to beg, borrow and (almost) steal photos for the sites. Thankfully there are some very good people in this game who can see the bigger picture. The vast number of photographers are happy to provise photos free of charge for the web on the understanding that any used in the printed media or for other promo stuff is paid for - it's their kind of loss leader.

What am I saying? Well, as long as it fits within the individuals longer term 'business plan' then what is wrong with people providing their services free of charge or for a small non-cash return? If it helps them get their name out, make contacts, get experience, etc. then what's wrong?

[Kelvin]

I'm off to a charity event on Saturday, my services will be free, but because a big motorsport tyre company is invloved in the event, I not only consider the charity a worthy cause, its also good PR/advertising, which freebies can be easlily labled as!

[jasont]

I'm with Craig on this one. There just doesn't seem to be any money in Online stuff anymore [at least not for motorsports] so we're left with a choice -

* provide the online stuff for free in the hope of getting some printed stuff [press releases, the pitlane posters etc] which I insist they pay for. Also you have to factor in sales to sponsors etc [which again I charge for].

* refuse to budge on fees for shots and sell nothing [but feel morally right about it ]

I have to say that the former works for me and I'd rather be working and selling a few shots for print than not working at all.


J