Club Historic Racing

[Al Weyman]

I understand where Simon is coming from and not just Britcar any of the series that cater for later model and by definition generally more reliable vehicles with easy to source spares are much cheaper to race in. For example Pre 93's, TTRS Pre 94's, Future Classics etc will always be cheaper to run a late model rice burner or Bimmer thats been chipped and tweeked than say a Mk 1 Lotus Cortina or an Escort. Also if you wreck one its a lot easier and cheaper to replace.

[alfaracer156]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

By the way - if you want real value for money Club racing forget historics and start looking into Britcar... I am rapidly starting to think that is the way forward

You obviously havnt raced in Britcar if you think its good value for money.Mike

[Peter Mallett]

But it is club motorsport.

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by alfaracer156

You obviously havnt raced in Britcar if you think its good value for money.Mike

I haven't and would be very interested for some insight

[andy97]

Britcar is club motorsport but the fact that Porsche 996 GT3 Cup cars are eligible for the "Production" Classes indicates the level of commitment required.

"Production" in Britcar used to mean fields full of Integras, Civics, Clio Cups, & VW Cup cars etc. Not any longer it seems.

The GT classes require serious money but it is still club motorsport!

[Al Weyman]

Sorry I thought it was still as Andy described it was previously so my comment not relevant anymore.

[simon drabble]

I think you have to compare like for like - the vast majority of people who post on here are, at best, midfield. Whether that is by talent or budget is pretty irrelevant. If you compare midfield Britcar I thin the costs are not outrageous. Equally if you compare the cost of running a GT40 at the squirty end of Spa 6 Hour against a Mosler or Carrera Cup car it is probably not too dissimilar..

[Paul D]

I think Al makes a valid point about later stuff being cheaper to prep/run. Just depends what you want to call 'historic'. My car is a Beemer of mid/late seventies vintage - I consider it historic, others may not. It's certainly not modern (no electronic trickery to speak of) and I'm not that much older than it!

However, I can be reasonably competitive in it on a good day (has been top five a couple of times) and it can be built and run for next to nowt because the bits are still - relatively - readily available. If I had something just a bit 'more' historic, like a 2002 or 1800, I reckon it would cost four times as much to build/run a car capable of similar results in a similar series!

I picked up a spare rolling shell for mine a while back (just in case...) in almost mint, never-welded condition for a hundred quid. A hundred quid FFS!!! Try doing that with a 2002 or 1800 - be lucky to get a wing!

Not that I have anything against the earlier models - far from it in fact. But it's a good demonstration of the difference in costs, even though mine is only marginally more modern than the earlier examples.

I'm with you too, Al, on the budget comments. There's no way I could contemplate this hobby if I didn't do all my own prep. The thought of paying someone four or five grand (for example) to build me an engine would simply finish me off! But I too find it very satisfying when I finish a race and realise I've beaten some superior machinery - isn't that what it's all about? Fun? Isn't it fun to go and drive the wheels off your car and finish ahead of some stuff that you really shouldn't have?

So what's my point you may ask? And it's a bloody good question, 'cos I dunno - think I lost track of that about three paragraphs ago...

[Colin McKay]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

all this talk of millionaire poseurs is frankly dull and smacks of envy talk.

What about paid pro drivers in 'club' racing, some don't think it's right. That's often part of the big budget but (although I didn't always look at it this way) there's a greater sense of achievement when you catch and pass them.

Without these wealthy racers there would be some pretty dull meetings around, I've been cannon fodder at some fantastic events and loved every minute.

[SFurness]

Like most things in life budgets are "relative".

If your bank account has a balance of seven figures a few thousand for an engine is not an issue.

If you race with whats left over after all the other "living" expenses are paid like me your budget is somewhat restricted.

To make the budget go further I do as much of the preparation I can and I do enjoy that side of it as well. At least when the temperature in the garage is above freezing.

It is what it is.

My plans for next season are very much "subject to" all being well I'll be on the grid in April.

Plan B is to buy a lottery ticket.

Steve

[zefarelly]

Never thought of being cannon fodder before Colin but very good point!

I've always done all my prep, thats half the fun, when I started I didn't know if I'd enjoy racing, but I loved building the car. Unfortunately for the wallet at least, I do like racing!

[Peter Mallett]

I confess that I'm at a loss to understand why "doing it yourself" is a criteria for "Club" motorsport although I do understand the enjoyment part. Many of us don't have the time to prep our own cars, come to that there may well be a lack of capability. Does that make those that pay for prep "professionals"?

Not only that it is amazing that a garage owner will say he/she spends hours on his car (out of normal working hours) so it doesn't cost him/her anything. When surely if the same effort was put into "billable" work the profits would be greater? The point being that there's nothing in motorsport that is free we just rearrange the time and finances to make it work.

Sooo doing it yourself is not an indication that you are a club racer.

[andy97]

Peter, agree. I don't do the prep myself because a) time & b) technically incompetent. What this means is that I race in a car and in a series that is at the "value end of the market", I probably race in 2 or 3 less races a year than I could do if I did the work myself and entering races where I can have a second driver means that the costs can be shared. Such is life. You cut the cloth to suit etc...

And as it happens, I'm cannon fodder, too!

Nevertheless, if I had the money in the bank, I'd love to be cannon fodder in Britcar.

[Al Weyman]

Look I think the distinction between club racer and professional is very simple those that get paid to participate and those that pay to participate and it doesnt matter whether they do their own prep or not.

[Al Weyman]

Its the same distinction between professional preparation companies like Delta's and someone like me, the end of the day we may both produce similar results the difference is the professional does it as a living I pay to do it doesnt necessarilly mean one has an advantage over the other in fact in some ways the home preparer may be at an advantage as he knows the car inside out and can spend as many hours on it he likes without budgetary restraint.

[Peter Mallett]

One point to consider. The OP also posts on the MGCC forum, where surprisingly, there's only a few racing discussions. Likewise there's a limited number of regular posters, so its not just this forum that has a small contingency of regulars.

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Its the same distinction between professional preparation companies like Delta's and someone like me, the end of the day we may both produce similar results.

Iain might politely disagree...!!

Surely it is simply a case of whether you primarily race domestically or internationally?

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Colin McKay

What about paid pro drivers in 'club' racing, some don't think it's right. That's often part of the big budget but (although I didn't always look at it this way) there's a greater sense of achievement when you catch and pass them.

Without these wealthy racers there would be some pretty dull meetings around, I've been cannon fodder at some fantastic events and loved every minute.

How many paid drivers are there in this country, I bet it doesn't go above double figures although for a small fee I'd drive that nice Mk2 of yours

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

......Surely it is simply a case of whether you primarily race domestically or internationally?

Simon, that won't hold water for everyone; both Midget(less)man and myself have raced more abroad than at home in the last few years. It's certainly less effort and stress getting to Spa or Nurburgring than Cadwell or Anglesey. It may cost a bit more - ferry etc - but it's a long weekend break for the family as well and we all enjoy it, so '2 birds with 1 stone' which helps justify the expense.

[zefarelly]

I don't seek a moral high ground because I nail my own car together, its just the way it works for me, and a path I've chosen, for various reasons I gave up Peters lifestyle of working overseas and earning the bucks, its personal choice, If I had lord Drabbles budget I'd be shooting peasants while on the phone to my preppers we're both cannon fodder at the end of the day and enjoy spending our pocket money being so!

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

Simon, that won't hold water for everyone; both Midget(less)man and myself have raced more abroad than at home in the last few years. It's certainly less effort and stress getting to Spa or Nurburgring than Cadwell or Anglesey. It may cost a bit more - ferry etc - but it's a long weekend break for the family as well and we all enjoy it, so '2 birds with 1 stone' which helps justify the expense.

couldn't agree more with that sentiment, now we have a motorhome its exactly what we're going to start doing again.

[compte deGraves]

I was really looking forward to going to Spa and Nurburgring again this year but I have just been informed that Formula Juniors are not going to either. Bummer.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

Iain might politely disagree...!!

Surely it is simply a case of whether you primarily race domestically or internationally?

Dont worry Simon I can prepare a car as good as the next man within my self imposed budgetry restaints, I did used to run my own garage business for many years, just because they may not be as tidy as some but then again as its only for me and not to impress a customer I dont really car too much about the spit and polish side.

BTW one of the fastest Capris I ever see race in CTCRC (Francis Butcher's?)was also one of the scruffiest I ever saw but it was damned fast.

[Peter Mallett]

That's because it was a 4l triple webbered version. Zef et al I wasn't suggesting that anyone was taking a moral high ground. Just pointing out that self prep is just an option.

[zefarelly]

I know you weren't, I was just highlighting that we take different paths as a choice, I've seen you operate a trolley jack, wave gaffer tape about etc, we move on . . . . .