No Clubmans Rallycross next year

[chunder]

Good response Andy and thats it in a nutshell, we do know things are not right and then you see thigs like that and think simply "WHY?"

I sm sure we could all do a better job given the budget and contacts!! lol NOT

[leonidas]

I find it astonishing that an official MSA British championship seems to be refusing to support the clubman side of the sport and seems to be deliberately undermining it. They've run together before, why not now?

Maybe if there is no feeder structure there shouldn't be an official MSA British Championship? It is, after all, meant to be an important national championship, not a private party for the country's richest drivers.

What are you supposed to do if you have a clubman car not eligible for any MSA class? Or if you are newcomer with a national B and the 'wrong' car?

On a positive note, perhaps the MDA/BTRDA could revive an all-rounders championship - Autocross (say, with the MSA Autocross championship), Sprinting and Rallycross? That would at least keep the cars out there and in the sport...

[Hickey]

Originally Posted by silver bullet

OK, let's just put one or two points straight here.
Firstly the title of the thread 'No Clubmans Rallycross next year' this is not strictly true. The organisers of The Clubmans Rallycross Championship have issued a statement saying there will be no championship in 2013, not that there will be no clubmans rallycross.
It was known that we would not be invited to join the BRxC next year, so plans were put in place to race on our own. Unfortunately things that were going to happen fell through, and the committee thought that rather than delay the decision, and try to find alternatives, it was best to let the drivers know straight away so that they can make other plans. Then re-double our efforts to try and secure a meaningful championship for 2014 and beyond.


The main problem is the cost of circuit hire, and also the events costs. We are talking in figures of £7000 -£10000+ to put a meeting on, so a regular entry of 40-50 cars @ £200 an entry is the minimum needed to cover the cost of the meetings, more if we want to put a little money in the pot for a rainy day (like now)
Folkrace is fine but as I understand it they run on rallycross circuits, maybe the cost of track hire is not as expensive over there.
Cramlington are doing a great job, but it is taking time, and this is one track, in the north, we need a club in the south to pick up the baton and see if they can do something.


IMHO there are 4 possible ways forward

Get more drivers out doing the meetings, either new ones or persuade old one who still have their cars to dust them off. In the current financial climate however this may not be too easy.

Find more sponsors, either championship or meeting, to help cover the costs. Once again the financial climate means most companies are cutting back their advertising budgets, so another difficult one.

Find new, more basic, and therefore cheaper places to run rallycross meetings. If you know of any, let The Clubmans Championship committee know.

Find other formulas who can race alongside us, and share the cost of venue hire.

I can tell you now that all of the above are being looked into. People are putting in thousands of miles, many hours on the phone, and an immense amount of their own time and money trying to make something happen.



There are people on these forums who are quick to criticise and put the sport (especially at club level) down. Well why don't you offer to help. All offers of help will be gratefully received. If you don't know who to contact send me a PM and I'll point you in the right direction.
Whether you like it or not, BTRDA/MDA level rallycross is the most important level of the sport.
Look at the drivers who have worked their way up through the ranks, they stick around. Most of the guys who come into the sport with a bang and a big budget seem to disappear after only a few seasons.



So yes, there is no Clubmans Championship in 2013, but hopefully there will be some clubmans meetings later in the year.
Watch this space.

Best reply on this thread yet.

I like the idea of mixing with other classes or sports and Bert's suggestion for SEMSEC at Lydden seems to be a good idea.

However, the number one has to be to convince BRxC to include the BTRDA. What are the reasons for Pat not wanting them? Entry Fees in the BRxC have sky-rocketed in recent years. More and more people are disgruntled at the way it's being run yet people seem powerless to stop it. He just doesn't seem to care that people are leaving the sport and the entry numbers are dwindling. Are they accountable to anyone? Is there a body that we could lobby? I know my brothers are gutted that they won't be able to race for another year - am sure that they are not alone. Maybe if we could lobby/petition as a group we could get the desired result - we all seem to be pulling in roughly the same direction on here...

[leonidas]

I am afraid that this is a broader problem with motorsport governance in the UK. The MSA hands over the MSA title to a particular person/club and they are pretty much free to do what they like. I suppose you could call an EGM of the 'Lydden Hill Motorsport Club'...?

I hope Pat (and I presume Pat is still calling the shots?) will think again. I've always had a lot of time for the guy but the current situation needs to be put right.

[chunder]

Some really good ideas here, and I think our best way of replicating the siccess of folkrace really is autocross, it is where a lot of rallycross guys came from back in the day and surely there is no reason why this cant be made into a portal for rallycross, plus obviusly helping revive a category of motorsport sadly lost to most.

Sharing venues is a brilliant idea, not sure some venues could be used this way, but a bigger track like Croft could surely? It might mean moving things round alittle but if it works for both who cares.

[Minicross424]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

I still think that it should be possible to use Lydden for Clubmans events - as you say splitting costs with other formulas and SEMSEC would seem an obvious choice. Currently SEMSEC use lydden for their circuit race meetings but the racing is only in the afternoons - in the morning there is usually a sprint organised by another club. It could be feasible therefore to have a SEMSEC race meeting in the morning and then clubmans rallycross in the afternoon (to avoid a rush to clear the dirt off the circuit). Also a lot of the clubmans cars could be eligible for SEMSEC races anyway so drivers could double up if they wanted too and do a bit of circuit racing (I seem to remember some stock hatches racing with SEMSEC in the past - and Dave Mountain in the supermodified Ka).

Top idea Bert and as a former Rallycrosser and now Semsec racer I think you idea has legs.
Andy Stevens running semsec and involved in Rallycross will no doubt help.

[AndyS]

Further to earlier post if this link works it should give you a flavour of the meeting they used to run at Blyton. As you can see most entries came from Autograss, which tends to suggest there's an appetite among Autograss drivers for this kind of event.

http://autograss.net/AutograssReview/2011_archive.html

If not just google Autograss vs Rallycross Blyton and you'll find it.

[AlamakiRX]

Originally Posted by Minicross424

Top idea Bert and as a former Rallycrosser and now Semsec racer I think you idea has legs.
Andy Stevens running semsec and involved in Rallycross will no doubt help.

This will never happen as LHMC own and run the Lydden Hill circuit and only allow ERC/BRC events to take place there. Only BRC events can run on the Rallycross circuit, so no point even talking about running seperate rallycross events here, or joint events.

Folkrace/Bilcross type events will not run, as you cannot run a NON MSA sanctioned/governed events on an MSA licensed circuit. Track days are different as these are not Motorsport, drifting is an MSA Champs so this is why it is ok.

The only way this type of meeting could be held would be at a non MSA circuit, or venue, such as an old airfield, but these are few and far between and 90% of them have already been contacted and its a no goer.

Blyton will never see rallycross again, and the loose sections don't even exist any more.

All of the above is why there is a major problem with Clubman Rallycross in the UK, the ONLY solution is to have 90% of events as part of the BRC (which they don't want) and the odd one or two stand alone meetings such as Nutts Corner.

As previously pointed out all other circuits require 6-10k to run per day, and with this kinda of outlay it would mean a 200-300 entry fee for clubman drivers which would be more than BRC so is a no goer.

Hope that answers a few points.

[leonidas]

Do LHMC actually own the Lydden Hill lease - or the Doran family?

LHMC is a membership organisation. So if the members aren't happy with the policy can something be done...?

[Stephen H]

Can't remember where I read it, but I thought the autograss rallycross meeting ran for getting on for 10 yrs at Blyton, and it was originally scheduled for December this year, but they cancelled it because they could get a track layout to work at redeveloped Blyton.

Certainly the Autograss boys and girls put on a good show over the winter at the Oval expo and they usually do the Autosport show at the nec.

I know winter is a busy time for stock cars with Wimbledon running every week, but we did have stock rods and then PRI Gp A hot rods running at the BARC winter rallycross at Lydden a few years back.

[AlamakiRX]

Originally Posted by leonidas

Do LHMC actually own the Lydden Hill lease - or the Doran family?

LHMC is a membership organisation. So if the members aren't happy with the policy can something be done...?

The Doran family own the Lydden Hill Circuit.

They set up LHMC to run from Lydden Hill to allow them to run and organise the BRC.

Drivers join LHMC in order to compete in the championship but it is the LHMC who make the decisions on the circuit, events, championship.

[rx-guru]

The Doran's own Lydden? Since when?

http://old.erc24.com/Default.asp?Show=News&c=0&ID=761

[leonidas]

The Dorans owned the lease - and presumably it has now been extended?

As I understand it the LHMC 'own' the MSA championship - in other words the competitors. So in theory things could change but the reality, I guess, is something different.

On the earlier point, the one thing I don't understand is how the Rallycross vs. Autograss meetings ran when they were at an MSA licensed venue (Blyton) yet included non-MSA logbooked vehicles. If it was done once could it not be done again?

[rx-guru]

Owner of the lease...?
Mmmh, difficult to understand for me.
Over here someone owns a car or a house. Or he is a leaser or tenant, but not the owner.

[flagwaver]

You can run non MSA events at any circuit, the fact that most choose not to is something different.

Motor clubs that are affiliated to the MSA are not permitted to run non MSA events though.

[Stephen H]

What about the oval meetings at Lydden?

Are the sprint cars, European late models, rolling thunder robins, or the Ron Coventry formula that run before, MSA licensed for the day then? Or are they okay as they used the oval, and not the full circuit at Lydden?

Is it really the case that Lydden don't won't clubman? If so, what a terrible insult to the memory of Bill Cheeson.

Is this a branding issue, eg they don't want the name rallycross associated with less expensive/clubman formula. Have to say I really don't understand why someone wouldnt want to hire a race circuit out for a race meeting!!!!!

Seems so much could be learned from the short circuit world, where they do try to introduce cheaper formula and cater for a whole range of budgets from rookie rods to national hot rods.

[AndyS]

Originally Posted by rx-guru

Owner of the lease...?
Mmmh, difficult to understand for me.
Over here someone owns a car or a house. Or he is a leaser or tenant, but not the owner.

My understanding was that they initially leased the circuit from the owner. I'm sure I read somewhere recently that the Doran's now owned the circuit. I can't think what it was in relation to but I thought I saw it in a release recently with the qoute something like 'now fully owned by the Dorans' or along similar lines. It may have been to do with the whole ERC/IMG thing, not sure. Didn't Maclaren own it at some point, possible when the Dorans initially leased it. Of course I may have got that all wrong as I have no direct knowledge and I'm only going on what I think I remember reading.

[bigdick1977]

I was told that the Dorans and Ollie O'Donovan had purchased the track outright, and that the deal was done a year or so ago.

[rx-guru]

Originally Posted by bigdick1977

I was told that the Dorans and Ollie O'Donovan had purchased the track outright, and that the deal was done a year or so ago.

Would make a lot of sense in the expectations of the IMG plans bearing fruit...

[chunder]

To be hoenst I dont really care who owns the place, I do care about rallycross going down the pan nationally!!

[stuart107]

I'm not so sure its as straight forward as just holding more events at circuits. I think it may be an issue surrounding track licences issued by local councils and also noise issues. Rallycross is classed as a 'noisy' motorsport and I'm pretty sure circuits are only allowed to run a certain number of 'noisy' events per year.

I wouldn't know what individual track limits are, but this is an example...

http://www.donington-park.co.uk/abou...-restrictions/

[flagwaver]

Noise is an issue at all circuits, so you have to question why drop the Clubmans class and continue with the RX150's?

Now it may be that the RX150 pay on a "per round" basis((that is they pay the organisers a set amount per round and it is up to The RX150 guys to then fill the grids) (a simular thing happens in circuit racing)) That gives the organisers a guaranteed income with less risk.

[AndyS]

Venues are the issue and I'm struggling to see where any new ones are going to come from at the moment. They tried to get one going at Tockwith near York but that fell foul of noise issues.

Is Autocross the way to go? or at least until such time as more venues can be sourced. How easy is it to set up an autocross track? I'm assuming you only need a field, sounds simple I know but I'm sure its not. I'm sure the BTRDA have considered this but just wondering.

[leonidas]

What I find very odd is that rallycross can't take advantage of the fact that most circuits are little used between November and April. Lydden has almost nothing advertised for Dec/Jan/Feb.

Surely there is a deal to be done with clubman rallycross for the winter months? Even if Lydden don't want clubmen with old cars in their main championship what would be wrong with a winter series? Okay, some circuits do refurbishment work in the winter but tracks don't make money when they are closed.

I don't buy the argument that people don't want to race during the winter/spring. There is plenty of rallying going on in this period...

[flagwaver]

I think we would all like to see more rallycross tracks, but in reality is it going to happen.

Blyton was the first new track for rallycross in over 20 years, it was built not on the backs of a pre existing circuit, but from scratch and look what happens.

Someone decides I'll build a rallycross track on this bit of land I rent. he does that bearing in mind he has a lot to pay out before he can get approval and run races. This he does, but all he seems to get is people moaning that it hasn't got all the facilities we need. (But he need the money from the events so he can provide more facilities)

Now bearing this in mind do you really think anybody else is going to build a rallycross track? I now Cramlington are in the process of getting a circuit sorted and I wish them luck, but I don't really see anywhere else doing it.