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10 Sep 2013, 02:11 (Ref:3301297) | #26 | ||
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The interview with JR after the race on one of the links posted here is telling. He all but said Boywer spun himself out. Not the first time someone has tried illegally to bring out a caution, and it won't be the last. At least NASCAR got it right.
And let's face it, neither Bowyer, Truex or Newman is going to win the Chase. |
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10 Sep 2013, 02:28 (Ref:3301301) | #27 | |
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And Jr would know how to spin a broken car, didn't he get quietly fined for spinning his car to avoid going down a lap a few years back? Course I'm not show how spinning would keep you from going down a lap
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10 Sep 2013, 03:10 (Ref:3301310) | #28 | ||
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10 Sep 2013, 07:58 (Ref:3301371) | #29 | ||
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As for the controversy, ouch! But NASCAR obviously made the right call. |
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10 Sep 2013, 09:02 (Ref:3301387) | #30 | |
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Good for NASCAR that they didn't just try to sweep this under the rug like it seemed they were trying to initially. It does however seem like NASCAR is penalizing MWR's pitting Vickers more than the Boywer spin. In my mind having Boywer spin was the greater offense, but for whatever reason NASCAR wasn't able to determine that the spin was intentional. Even when NASCAR gets it right there's still some aspect of what they do that smells funny. Oh well.
I'm glad Ryan Newman gets to be in the Chase because he earned it. I do think that Jeff Gordon should have been allowed in as well. I think the right thing to do would have been to go back to what the Chase positions were at the moment that Clint Boywer/MWR started to manipulate the results. I have a feeling Mr. Gordon may reignite his feud from last year with Boywer and dole out a little justice himself at some point. |
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10 Sep 2013, 16:29 (Ref:3301537) | #31 | |
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I think the biggest question now is, "How will MWR and its drivers win back the respect of their competitors and the NASCAR community?"
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10 Sep 2013, 21:48 (Ref:3301725) | #32 | ||
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Jeff Gordon's not happy!
". . . if NASCAR decides to fix this then fix it completely!" As in disqualify Bowyer from the Chase & let Gordon replace him? |
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10 Sep 2013, 23:06 (Ref:3301758) | #33 | ||
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The Waltrips are so bound up in Fox broadcasting as well. This is very, very messy. Bowyer's reputation is also in the muck.
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10 Sep 2013, 23:12 (Ref:3301759) | #34 | ||
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i want to see some WWE retribution. Gordon takes out Bowyer, Truex and Vickers as team mates take out JJ and Jnr. Then the ladders, chairs and tables come out to play
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10 Sep 2013, 23:38 (Ref:3301767) | #35 | |||
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Quote:
Did Truex know about the team orders ahead of time? Anyone know, just wondering. Quote:
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11 Sep 2013, 00:09 (Ref:3301776) | #36 | |||
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More pieces:
Quote:
Quote:
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11 Sep 2013, 00:12 (Ref:3301777) | #37 | |
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Nascar got it right as best as they could. Michael Waltrip seems to be saying the right things post fine. It would be so much easier if the Ty Norris bunch would just say we thought it was a good idea at the time
but we were busted and now we are paying the price. Then this becomes a non-issue after the Chicago race. |
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11 Sep 2013, 01:12 (Ref:3301808) | #38 | ||
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Interview with MW
Not particularly contrite... You might have thought the MWR team would have briefed at the start of the weekend that they would not do anything but to play fair on track.. so there would be no decision to make? |
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11 Sep 2013, 01:29 (Ref:3301815) | #39 | ||
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I originally posted this at Motorsport Mayhem, and it's been edited slightly for content:
Here's the argument I'll put up against both NASCAR and MWR--if not for the damned, stupid chase, this would be a non issue. What was wrong with the 36 race season? I'm of the opinion of "so what if a guy wins the title by 1 point or 400?" I feel that NASCAR under Brian France has catered to these young, entitled, gen-y, second gen "Days of Thunder" fans, who were raised on senseless action movies and want H'wood theatrics to be part of every single race. I've been a racing fan most of my life, and I adhere to what Dave Despain has said: some races are barn burners, some are very good, some of freakin' horrid, some are so-so/mediocre, but most are decent to good. Same with championships. But NASCAR is so damned to net that 18-25 crowd, that they'll stoop to any lowest common denominator for the sake of corporate greed. Sad thing for NASCAR, is not only does their actions tarnish their reputation and respect as far as older generations and more "traditional" fans go, but they're trying to net the wrong demographic. Someone did a study recently that reviled that most 18-15'ers not only didn't get their drivers' licenses by the age of 16, many of them didn't get their licenses until they were into their 20s. Now, before I dump on my own generation (I'll be 27 in November, which is BTW the same age as former Speed Channel sportscar writer/analyst John Dagys, who's been a respected motorsports journalist his entire adult life), I will say that though there are plenty of people of my generation who don't have their head on straight and are engaged into too much stupid crap, I'll say this. The cost of living is so much higher for a lot of us than it was for even the gen-x'ers. Back then, gas didn't cost damn near $4.00 a gallon, and they weren't into early adult-hood when the recession hit. Three big reasons why I don't have a drivers' license is gas cost, car costs, and insurance cost (the state of Ohio can kiss my ass on that one!). I'm also co-workers with a young woman who is an individual consultant for mentally and physically disabled people. She'll be turning 24 on Friday, and she'll also be getting married on Saturday. She put herself though college to do this job that she absolutely loves doing, but I don't need to tell her that going to college and working full time is hard work, and for all I know, she's probably still paying off her college loans, since she recently graduated from college. She's of that 18-25 crowd, and though she's probably indifferent to auto racing (everyone has their tastes), she's def. go her head on straight. But back to my point. NASCAR's lust for money really came to ahead with the chase, because Nextel (now Sprint) offered to put up a lot of money for it, a lot more than RJ Reynolds was willing to in order to resign as NASCAR's top tier title sponsor (which they would've had to have vacated or re-branded due to RJR's merger with Nabisco due to the US Government and the tobacco settlements). That, combined with NASCAR's growth bubble bursting and their growth in fan-base stagnating, they needed to get that 18-25 crowd, and the 26-34 crowd, too. But the chase, the COT, and all the mea culpas that the BF administration had to make when they got things wrong, that's not helped their credibility. As for MWR, it does seem clear that on at least one case that they set out to shaft Newman. But corporate greed probably played a hand in that, too, because making the chase is worth a lot of bonus money in the point fund. I think that MWR though that the extra million in a half bucks or so were worth the risks. But as always from NASCAR saying "we don't want to catch you cheatin' the system", the message is obvious: don't get caught. If Ryan had finished just one position better at Richmond or any other race, MWR's efforts to abuse the system would've been for naught. This all would be a non issue, and it would be swept under the rug. But because someone got in, in part due to questionable actions, NASCAR decided to act. Good on them for trying to seed the message that "if you screw the system, we'll screw you back if we find a smokin' gun", but sadly, I think it's all a joke, and if not a joke, it's surly a brick short and a day late, like a lot of stuff that NASCAR has done the past 13 or so years. What I'd love for NASCAR to do now is try and institute a rule into their rule book restricting/banning team orders. All I can is that if they're planning that is "good bleepin' luck!" Max Mosley tried to ban team orders in F1, but teams still found ways around it, be it with race strategy to favor one driver over another, or even overt orders that got overlooked. The deal with the Renault F1 deal was that because of said ban, Briatore got banned from F1 for live, and Symmonds got sat out for up to 10 years. But then things happened. First, Jean Todt reduced the penalites (Briatore got his life ban reduced to a 5-10 year ban, and Symmonds got 1-2 years plus time served). Then a French Civil Court said that the rules as written that individuals on the team couldn't be punished in that way, only the whole team can (ie, Renault only got a 2-3 year suspended ban--basically probation--meaning that that Briatore and Symmonds can only get the same punishment). Hence, the bans, which were reduced first, were totally appealed. And hence, Jean Todt created that FIA International Tribunal to keep the French and other EU civil courts out of the FIA's business. Of course, with Tire Gate, the FIA's own IT partially ruled against the FIA--it said that the FIA, Pirelli and Mercedes-Benz all had blood on their hands--so we saw how it can work. Same thing here--both NASCAR and MWR have blood on their hands IMO, the only difference is degree. MWR for cheating the system, and NASCAR providing the system that was cheated. I don't know what he was talking about at the time, but in around 2004, Darrel Waltrip said something about "unintended consequences", possibly about the chase. This was an unintended, though IMO foreseeable, consequence of the system. We all had to know that something like this was going to happen, and MWR's greed and NASCAR's greed made it happen. I can't crap totally all over NASCAR--they had to do something to protect the integrity of the chase--but they can't throw a hissy fit every time someone cheats the system or rules, especially if NASCAR at the time had no answer for them. NASCAR's gotten caught with their pants down a few times recently stuff like that. That stuff IMO hurts NASCAR as badly as if they didn't do anything at all--sometimes, they can't win. And this sort of goes back to some comments that some had about NASCAR publishing their rulebook online, that fans would write or call or text or e-mail the Daytona Beach HQ or race control asking about penalties and why they didn't do things exactly the same every time. Also, one poster said that fans are little more than matchsticks at the end of the day. Well, I'll bet that some may say "I told you so" and others will have to admit to fans being pretty powerful matchsticks because I'll be that fan reaction was a big reason why NASCAR felt it had to act. Naturally, I still believe that NASCAR should abandon the chase, go back to a full season championship, and promote each race as an event on to itself, like Indy Car, ALMS, GA and the WEC do. And if that makes the championship into a side-show, I hate to say it, but so be it. All I know is that Fox Sports 1 will be broadcasting the WEC 6 Hours of COTA live and in it's entirety. I think that it's easy to say how I'll be spending that Sunday... BTW, if an article on Fox Sports.com is right, I'll bet that the frozen yogurt or ice cream that Ryan was eating at the time he heard the news, I'll bet that's probably the best tasting frozen food item he's ever had And he's also got a ride with RCR, so things aren't all bad. I still agree with his assessment from Saturday night that his team's not championship caliber--if his crew got him out ahead of Edwards and/or Busch, this all would be a non issue. But Newman's boss said the same thing, and guess who was champ in '11. Not saying it's gonna happen, but lightning can strike twice |
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11 Sep 2013, 15:55 (Ref:3302176) | #40 | ||
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11 Sep 2013, 21:21 (Ref:3302401) | #41 | ||
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Sounds like there may be more to come out of this...
http://msn.foxsports.com/nascar/stor...-091113#!i1Lq5 |
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11 Sep 2013, 21:54 (Ref:3302422) | #42 | ||
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11 Sep 2013, 22:43 (Ref:3302450) | #43 | ||
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I say ban them all, cancel the rest of the season and give Mark Martin the title.
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12 Sep 2013, 01:02 (Ref:3302489) | #44 | ||
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It's a contrived "playoff" system developed by Nascar that encourages this. If it were a real "playoff" eliminate people during the ten races making it "mano e mano" at Hostead.
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12 Sep 2013, 01:54 (Ref:3302501) | #45 | ||
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An interesting conjecture: if Bowyer had been in with a chance of winning would he have spun? He & Kevin Harvick threw away their chances of winning with an unlucky bit of timing - they were a car length apart battling for the lead & both decided to pit at the same time. . . they were less than halfway down the pit lane when the yellows came out for Jimmy Johnson's incident!
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12 Sep 2013, 02:50 (Ref:3302515) | #46 | ||
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NASCAR should really give this a rest! It's almost like they believe that team orders is a Euro racing phenomina that's never happened here in the states or in NASCAR. Well the, Brian, Mike, John and Robin are either really naive or really freakin' stupid!
My solution: dump the chase, come up with a points system that gives the top 5 or top 10 finishers the lion's share of the points (sort of like the WEC or F1's points system), and stop giving points to teams that finish below a certain position. In the past, I wouldn't have advocated such a system, as I felt that there was nothing wrong with the Bob Latford points system and a season-long championship. But NASCAR's made a hole for themselves here, and they're the only ones who can fix it. I only wish that the Feds would find some impropiety with NASCAR so they can arrest or sue Brian France. Too many people are too invested in something that we all knew would happen sooner or later, and it's time for people on all sides to either get over it and move on, or, maybe find another sport to be a fan of. It all goes back to my comments on the 6 hours of COTA being televised on FS1, and what I'll be doing that Sunday... And I'm surprised that more people aren't accusing HMS and Jimmie for staging that caution when Johnson bit the wall, since it's just a convenient coincidence that that same yellow helped get Jeff back on the lead lap. I'm almost to the point where NASCAR should just declare all 12 chase sports null and void, and just run Richmond all over again. |
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12 Sep 2013, 09:42 (Ref:3302610) | #47 | ||
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Theoretically you could implement a cheating plan and noone would ever know. If they were good enough liars. I guess NASCAR did the right thing by being tough but it's not possible to secure the sport from this kind of cheating just as in most sports I guess. I'm sure the chase will pick up pace but there will always be that question mark.
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13 Sep 2013, 23:08 (Ref:3303628) | #48 | |||
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This was a very messed up play... and could have happened exactly as happened, if only they had been clever enough to form a plan before the weekend and just make it happen like a normal course of events. Like instead of just allowing Mr Truex to rumble down pitroad, put him for new tyres & fuel and call it a strategy play. And Mr Bowyer didnt have to spin and risk himself & the car, he could have just turned it off and stopped dead on the track. They could have discussed it before hand and made sure that radio chat all night had the pilot complaining about the engine or ECU or similar... All this stuff MUST happen in other teams, its only the poor leadership at MWR that seems to have allowed it to land in the public arena. Same as the Penske/Front Row discussions... could have been handled internally much cleaner... as a fellow Ford team, they could have had the discussion pre race, and the driver genuinely gets passed by the #22 car... This stuff isnt rocket surgery, nor is it new, but MWR and Penske are being made out to be the worst people in NASCAR... |
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