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29 Nov 2017, 06:17 (Ref:3783948) | #26 | |||
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29 Nov 2017, 07:53 (Ref:3783955) | #27 | |
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Theres a surprise, ex partners disagree with each other over split...
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29 Nov 2017, 08:03 (Ref:3783956) | #28 | |||
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Skaife = total championships and Bathurst victories Brock = total championships and Bathurst victories Moffat = total championships and Bathurst victories Lowndes = total championships and Bathurst victories Ian Geoghegan = total championships Your argument all comes down to Numbers lol Beats all those drivers you mentioned in race wins, poles and Championships. Destroyed Lowndes multiple times. Last edited by FAS33; 29 Nov 2017 at 08:13. |
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29 Nov 2017, 11:30 (Ref:3784005) | #29 | ||
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The racing is completely different in all of those era's, no stats can be relevant to eachother to make a reasonable comparison. It's like saying Hamilton is better than Clark, based on what? I'm still keen to hear what makes you think Rossi is the GOAT of Motorcycle Grand Prix racing? |
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29 Nov 2017, 11:46 (Ref:3784008) | #30 | ||
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Its very easy to compare. 7 ATCC is greater than 1 ATCC (or 2,3,4,5). however at 6 maybe some other factors can come into play I really struggle to see how anyone can deny that |
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29 Nov 2017, 12:00 (Ref:3784014) | #31 | |
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So (without looking up detailed results) has he matched the start win/ratio of 101 wins from 150 starts that A Moffat achieved with the Trans AM Mustang? To me that would be the GOAT, given it was against Jane, Geoghan, Beechey all with different makes/models, unlike today.
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29 Nov 2017, 12:07 (Ref:3784015) | #32 | ||
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4 is much less than 7 |
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29 Nov 2017, 12:11 (Ref:3784016) | #33 | |
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[QUOTE= is much less than 7[/QUOTE]
But quality does not always equal quantity ....... |
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29 Nov 2017, 12:18 (Ref:3784017) | #34 | |
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29 Nov 2017, 12:36 (Ref:3784020) | #35 | |
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You seem to miss the whole point of my comment re the start/win ratio for Moffat in the TransAm Mustang. The modern Stupidcars circuit has so many more events now than was ever the case back in the true ATCC days. Given that JW has only scored his wins/Championships with 888, does his race start/win percentage equal the 66% that Moffat had in the TransAm?
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29 Nov 2017, 12:42 (Ref:3784021) | #36 | ||
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7 beats 4. all time is bigger than a short period of that time |
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29 Nov 2017, 13:03 (Ref:3784024) | #37 | ||
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For what it's worth, Whincup won 28 races in one chassis, across 3 seasons, not including wins when other chassis were used in that same timeframe. I'm curious to see what the start:win ratio is for that particular car. |
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29 Nov 2017, 13:26 (Ref:3784029) | #38 | ||
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I don't think you can say of anyone that they are the Greatest of All Time. The greatest of their era, certainly, because you're comparing equal playing fields.
However, the phrase 'Among the Greatest of All Time' is indisputable. |
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29 Nov 2017, 15:14 (Ref:3784054) | #39 | |
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So basically you're saying that if Joe Bloggs wins 10 Hyundai Excel championships, he is the GOAT touring car driver because the only THING (not think) we can compare is quantity.
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29 Nov 2017, 18:04 (Ref:3784096) | #40 | ||
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I don't believe that different eras can be accurately compared statistically, as there are too many other variables in the mix beyond the raw numbers.
For example, in my view Moff's Transam Moostang was the greatest touring car we've ever seen here, relative to its opposition - but that view is subjective and any stats don't allow for regulations, closeness of competition etc across different eras. There can be no definitive, correct answer one way or the other on this but it's an interesting pub (or forum) discussion. For mine, J Dub is high quality but his head explosions at Bathurst make it hard for me to rate him as GOAT. I can't see other "greatest" contenders throwing away potential victories at the mountain the way that he has. |
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29 Nov 2017, 20:43 (Ref:3784144) | #41 | |
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29 Nov 2017, 20:48 (Ref:3784145) | #42 | |
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I still think it's Lowndes, though the comparisons to NASCAR's Gordon/Johnson are surprising. It's worth noting that Lowndes lost five entire years of his prime in his aborted single-seater career, and then in those god-awful 00 Motorsport/early-days FPR cars, while once joining 888 Whincup has had more than an uninterrupted decade with the best car on the grid- once you factor this in, I'd put him above Whincup by a whisker for modern-era drivers. (how many wins does Whincup lose if you effectively zero out his late 20s?)
If, theoretically, Lowndes had abandoned his F1 dreams and stayed with HRT through 2003 I'd think you'd be talking about a few more years before Whincup beat Lowndes' record of race wins. (also my personal choice is Jim Richards, but hey, different era) Last edited by FBJim; 29 Nov 2017 at 20:55. |
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29 Nov 2017, 21:12 (Ref:3784152) | #43 | |
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(also, Lowndes is clearly the Rossi (or Jeff Gordon) of F1- say what you want about their respective driving abilities, but Lowndes was a transformative figure in the sport, and a huge personality- Whincup has more wins but he's like the Lorenzo type who's far more anonymous to most fans- the Jeff Gordon/Jimmie Johnson comparison couldn't be more apt in this case)
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29 Nov 2017, 21:32 (Ref:3784157) | #44 | ||
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29 Nov 2017, 21:50 (Ref:3784160) | #45 | ||
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agree with you on the Jeff Gordon/Jimmie Johnson comparison, often thought that about the two of them |
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29 Nov 2017, 22:47 (Ref:3784179) | #46 | |
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This is a bit rich, considering this years' title is right up there in status with the Kelly/Lowndes decider of 2006.
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30 Nov 2017, 02:53 (Ref:3784210) | #47 | ||
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For Moffat's win ratio you are only looking at what he did in a single car (not his entire career), and are looking at results for ATTC races and non-ATTC races. For JW you are looking at his entire ATTC career (not a single car) and are only looking at ATTC races. Agree there are more races/events these days, but given you are comparing win conversion ratio then the number of races is irrelevant (calculating win ratio smoothes the differing number of races they entered)...so there is no need to restrict Moff's results to only those in the Mustang and there is no need to include non-ATTC races - you can simply compare their conversion ratio for all ATTC races they entered for their entire career. Even if we accept your invalid comparison, Moffat has a better race win ratio but loses massively in terms of championships (0 to Moffat in the Mustang, 7 to Jamie in his career). |
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30 Nov 2017, 03:11 (Ref:3784211) | #48 | |
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Moffat - 100 ATCC starts, 32 wins.
Whincup - 434 ATCC starts, 108 wins. Skaife - 220 ATCC starts, 90 wins. Lowndes - 635 ATCC starts, 105 wins. Brock - 212 ATCC starts, 37 wins. Johnson - 202 ATCC starts, 22 wins. Geoghegan - 42 ATCC starts, 9 wins. Do the math on that. I couldn't be bothered. |
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30 Nov 2017, 03:17 (Ref:3784213) | #49 | ||||
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Skaife's ratio is amazing, but you also have to factor in the GTR somewhat - people act as if a 888 car is not equal to others, but at least from a rules perspective it was! |
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30 Nov 2017, 03:26 (Ref:3784214) | #50 | |
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I think you'll find that engineers do the engineering. Drivers don't find horsepower or handling or traction or aero or any of the other qualities you want in a race car. They just cry about things that aren't right, leaving it to the engineers to do the development and implement the changes.
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