F1 survival?

Originally posted by Stephen Green
You have just argued against yourself Aussiefan! You say that success should be rewarded by TV money and then say those less successful should be given more TV money to encourage them. You can't have it both ways my friend

Don't say that!
What I meant was that, if these 'survival' tactics were bought in, perhaps the distribution should be set out a little more evenly than it is now INSTEAD of each team getting an equal amount.

To be honest I would like the distribution to stay the same but I guess that's not realistic.

[kdr]

it may be too late to save it. entry costs are prohibitive, the 48 million is just for starters...how much did toyota have to spend to even get onto the grid at melbourne? 200 million+?

so that rules out private teams and puts the focus on manufacturers. who? audi? to spend 200million+ to finish 11th or 12th behind mercedes and bmw for 5 or 6 years?

we're basically left with a premier league of f1. ferrari, mclaren and williams are man utd, liverpool and arsenal...all the others are battling just to stay in the top flight, and eventually thru disgruntled sponsor pullouts will drop down a division.

just watch...

[BootsOntheSide]

I'm not sure what can be done. The changes that have been made for 2003 are positive, but the situation simply doesn't allow a privateer to enter a team from scratch in the way Frank, Ron and Eddie did in the past.

The longterm situation isn't pretty. The works teams who do not achieve much will tire of the expense, and the Private teams who are left could be forced out. Some sort of spending cap, or mayjor redistribution of funds, may be essential.

I don't want an F1 with just a handful of big-bucks soulless corporate teams manouvering their 3 cars so as to contrive a result, simply because the BMW bigwigs want to be able to say they beat Mercedes. And I hope none of us do.

The soul of racing is being sold down the river AS WE SPEAK.

[Total-F1]

Jordan have no title sponsor for next year at the moment - and expensive engines to pay for.

Minardi have turned down the Cosworth and want to develop the Asiatech engine themselves - and the Malaysian sponsors may yet change their minds.

BAT and Ford are seriously thinking about pulling the plug on their respective teams, BAR and Jag - at the end of this next season.

Sauber are heavily reliant on the goodwill on Petronas to survive.

[Glen]

Very hard time for Jordan at the moment - the (very recent!) experience of Arrows being unable to afford the customer Ford engine will weigh heavy on their minds - and the minds of any potential sponsors. Add that to any understandable cycnisim that might prevail about Jaguar/Ford - the last thing that Ford need is to be beaten by their customer team, which is a distinct possibility given Jaguar's current malaise.

[RaceFreak]

HOW TO FIX F1

1. No Traction control. Period. F1 mgmt supplies ECU's to each engine mfgr. No 'add-on' software. None.

2. Chg the engine formula to F3000 specs. Not a spec engine per se, but less expensive than the megabuck lumps of today. Four hundred bhp is plenty for a competitive show. I see 20+ cars on the grid for F3000 races; and the racing's pretty darn good. Many F1 drivers come direct from F Renault anyhow .Could you imagine a 40 car F1 field ? The purists will puell about the lack of sound: The sponsors will flock to the international exposure.

3. Any driver who doesn't score in the top 50% of the drivers championship within 5 yrs of his first start is GONE. New blood, please. (note the more standardized engine specs level the field significantly) Obviously the points system would have to be changed to accomodate this.

Encourage national teams. There's no American team 'cause it's so damn expensive compared to the return. Perhaps establish a Nationality-based championship to go with drivers/manufacturers.

Sweeping changes are needed. F1 is dead without them.

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by Total-F1

Minardi have turned down the Cosworth and want to develop the Asiatech engine themselves - and the Malaysian sponsors may yet change their minds.

Where did this come from? Is there a link to back up this claim?

[Valve Bounce]

Anyone who thinks that an F1 team can be started with less than $48 million is living in fantasy land.

Anyone who thinks that an expenditure cap can be applied to F1, and controlled, is obviously not familiar with international finance and banking practices.

[woodbine]

Personally I feel that F1 is going to have to go down the avenue of standard parts. The FIA provide say ECU, front and rear wings, brakes and even gearboxes. This way it reduces the performance gain that all the big boys millions can buy and Might allow the smaller teams a better chance of competing. I would also bring in a rule similar to the one CART had where engine manufacturers had to supply more than one team.

One problem though; that darned Concorde Agreement

[Valve Bounce]

Just ban on board computers, that's all.

[EERO]

The issue is money.

Usually, the richest teams will win, but not since the '30's have we seen such a disparity between the "Haves" and the "Have nots".

The clearest way to salvage the sport is to eliminate the really expensive advantages sopme teams enjoy, including dedicated full test teams and 24-7 wind tunnels. I agree Bouncey, On-board computers are a problem for compettive reasonably priced racing, but they are not the sole problem.

Given the current state of the World Economy, a 48 million dollar ante just to be dealt a hand seems a little steep.
The Concorde was an effective document when it eliminated the chaffe from the late '80s and the show, overall, improved considerabley over the past ten years-its certainly more professional.

But the simple fact that the state of the sport and the state of the world have changed determines that the Concorde Agreement is an archaic pact. What is needed is both a technical and a legal overhaul of the sport. Ultimately, its in the best interests of Ferrari and McLaren and Williams for Sauber, Jordan and Minardi to stick around.

I recall thaqt durring the 1969 and 1970 seasons, the fields were getting a little thin, but a mere 4 seasons later, F1 was never healthier.

I believe that these things are cyclical to a degree, but Bernie and Max MUST lay the groundwork for a revived series and so far, their changes don't seem to be the right path to me.

I'd also like to say that Race Freaks proposal, just up the thread, has some better and more viable ideas than the nine points offered by the FIA.

[Valve Bounce]

EERO, I must take issue on the $48 million. This is a refundable deposit, to ensure that drivers, team members, engine suppliers are paid at the end of the day. To be realistic, there is no way in the world that anyone could possibly start up an F1 team from scratch with just $48 million. It is just not possible. To get to the point where the car is manufactured, tested for compliance by crash testing, hire staff and drivers, get an engine plus black box plus gearbox plus diff, then test sufficiently before putting the car onto the grid for first practice for the first race is going to cost a helluva lot more than $48 million. This $48 million refundable deposit is just to ensure that drivers, staff, engine supplier and anyone else involved with the team is not gyped. The current Arrows fiasco tells it all.
I agree totally with Race Freak's points 1 and 2. This will allow engines to be a lot less expensive. Perhaps we can have a relegation situation whereby the bottom 2 teams of F1 is relegated to be replaced by the top 2 teams in F3000. This is just a thought.
I cannot figure out point 3 yet, but this may be a bad idea as it assumes that the teams have no control who they hire. I think this needs more careful consideration. Minardi was never going to get either driver within 50% of the WDC no matter how many years it takes. I would prefer a team relegation system. If a driver is no good, the team would fire him anyway.

[Red]

Actually I would extend the '48 mills' rule one step further: some of this money should not be refunded. They should be a deposit and refunded only in major crisis situation, like Arrows this year. That way they would make sure that a team has enough money to compete all races in a season, no matter what.

[kdr]

i agree with red...a deposit for when you leave in ignaminious circumstances(ie - money for arrows to pay their creditors).

still the end game is that toyota invested somewhere in the region of 200 million to get onto the grid. factories, dev costs, car build, drivers, publicity, staff, all the way down to the post-it notes. 200 mill...can't imagine any irish former car salesmen with that sort of wedge to get started

[EERO]

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
EERO, I must take issue on the $48 million. This is a refundable deposit, to ensure that drivers, team members, engine suppliers are paid at the end of the day. To be realistic, there is no way in the world that anyone could possibly start up an F1 team from scratch with just $48 million. It is just not possible.

Two points, Bouncey:

1) I understand that some sort of guarantee to the Organizing body about the viability of a team is neccessary. But 48 mill is a huge amount to have to raise in addition to the enourmous sums required to get a competitive team on the grid


2) 48 million dollars.

"To be realistic, there is no way in the world that anyone could possibly start up an F1 team from scratch with just $48 million. It is just not possible."

You said it, not I. But I concur.
But let's be realistic. 10 seasons ago, $15 million could fund a decent midfield effort. Now, with annual budgets pushing $350,000,000(!) for a compettive effort, I have to ask how long teams can continue to sustain such incredible expenses and how long the commercial world is going to continue to pump money into into F1. Fiat and Ford are in serious trouble-how long before the bean counters say "Enough". Daimler Benz has yanked the plug on racing before and could well do it again. BMW and Honda lack the capital of their major competitors. Petronas is a volatile business (no pun intended) in a volatile corner of the world.

Given all that, the only possible case for the survival of F1 is to foster the health of Race car manufactures such as Jordan and Minardi (and McLaren and Williams as they once were). An economic collapse is coming and if F1 is going to survive, it must trim the price of admission.

[EERO]

Originally posted by kdr
still the end game is that toyota invested somewhere in the region of 200 million to get onto the grid. factories, dev costs, car build, drivers, publicity, staff, all the way down to the post-it notes. 200 mill...can't imagine any irish former car salesmen with that sort of wedge to get started

Its well more than 200 mill.

[Valve Bounce]

EERO, this is not a good sign. I am already predicting the 2 minnow teams to fall out of F1, and I think there is a good chance that Jaguar will pull out in year 2004. I know we have bleated for cost cutting in F1, and so far we only have NATO :no action, talk only. If Minardi, Jordan, and Jaguar are out, it won't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Sauber's sponsors will be spending heaps of money for the privilege of tooling around at the back of the depleted field.
This thread is about F1 survival, and I am getting to the point of exasperation that if the FIA cannot radically change things around to cut costs, and unless Bernie returns a helluva lot more money back to the teams, F1 will not survive.

[Total-F1]

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
Where did this come from? Is there a link to back up this claim?

Are links acceptable in court?

A little birdie told me, but it seems the FIA are claiming there is a supply, so I'm more than likely wrong.

[EERO]

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
EERO, this is not a good sign. I am already predicting the 2 minnow teams to fall out of F1, and I think there is a good chance that Jaguar will pull out in year 2004. I know we have bleated for cost cutting in F1, and so far we only have NATO :no action, talk only. If Minardi, Jordan, and Jaguar are out, it won't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Sauber's sponsors will be spending heaps of money for the privilege of tooling around at the back of the depleted field.

Bouncey, I don't disagree with anything you say.
But its serious, and if the World Economy continues to plummet, expect F1 to suffer.

[Armco Bender]

Theres only one outlook for F1 in its current form

[Valve Bounce]

Gee Armco!! That must be one of the Barmy Army at Perth

[I Ate Yoko Ono]

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
Gee Armco!! That must be one of the Barmy Army at Perth

Nah - he'd just watched the Wallabies attempt Rugby Union at Twickenham.

[Valve Bounce]

Three tries to Two!! Three tries to Two!! How do you do? Three tries to Two!!

[Liz]

HOW TO FIX F1

Short term version : Compel TGF to retire NOW. This should fix things for the next five years, as there are plenty of good drivers to fill up the dozen cars that will be on the grid, but nobody who is going to dominate. Ferrari has no interest in Rubens as a driver, bar his usefulness to TGF, so they will not be inclined to manipulate the rules in his favour anyway.

Long version :

(1) Either (a) get rid of the "bringing disrepute upon the sport" clause, thus freeing drivers to speak their minds and behave as they see fit, or (b) pass a rule that says if your name and Formula One appear in a headline in any major news organ in a country where Formula One races coupled with the words "F1 Farce" "Disgrace to Racing" or "Shameful Behaviour", whether or not you were "chust following orders", you lose your points for that race and are banned from the next race in that country. If you transgress in this fashion in more than half the markets where Formula One races, you're banned for the rest of the season. This is void only in a country where 9 out of 10 people randomly addressed have no idea who you are or what you do for a living.

(2) Tear down the walls, fences, barricades, and gates, and fire the security guards at all Formula One races except from noon to the start of racing on Saturday and race day, to end promptly when the last car is off the track. Force the drivers to interact with the fans for at least half the hours they are not actually in the car. (Hire fan ombudsmen to patrol the garage and make sure they're not pretending to be working just to keep from being seen.) This can be through fan forums, autograph sessions, interviews with open seating for an audience, fashion shows, dinner parties, or any other event-related activity. The only stipulations would be that (a) the driver MUST be visible without field glasses, (b) the event must charge less than $50.00, and (c) access must not be limited only to High Rollers and Beautiful People.

3. Open up media access to web journalists. This would attract a younger and less critical crowd to F1 and make it less urgent to actually improve the racing.

4. Eliminate all electronic crutches and make the men drive the cars. Anyone found using a disguised electronic crutch has his car impounded for the balance of the season. Let the cheaters build a new one, under supervision if necessary, if they want to keep on racing. In other words, let people know that actions have consequences. Big Time.

5. Make Bernie and Max spend one entire season as common Joe and Joann Fans. That is, make them drive to the circuit and park in the public parking area, sit in fan seating, use fan washrooms and eat what the fans eat -- and pay the same prices. Because their incomes are larger than the National Debt of Canada, make them pay a proportionate share of their income for each ticket, hot dog, parking slot or beer. (That is, if the average fan pays 1% of his annual income for a Grand Prix weekend ticket, charge Bernie and Max the same percentage.) Let them figure out first hand whether the fans are getting value for their money.

OR:

Stand back and let the whole thing collapse. Then rebuild it from the ground up.

[Valve Bounce]

Just as an afterthought - if F1 folded, what would replace it? F3000? CART? IRL?
The drivers will all want to race, the factories will see little benefit racing F3000 or other cars, and we might go back to basics with a non factory involved competition. Is this at all viable?