Favourite Hillclimb?

[ss_collins]

Grassroots isnt all tuned novas etc... its everything from novas to 6R4s, and yes there are single seaters and from vees to TVR engined specials.

I'm thinking of the Sevenoaks speed league - reasonably big series that get invites all over the UK but never Walsh - they should run 1 day for clubbie series, then perhaps they would get that bit more support.

[MIKE HEATH]

Favorite all time was Finlake which was truley awsome, (even in the Metro I was driving at the time) but the venue has been built on. So for fun value for money and accomodating locals it has to be Wiscombe but I do like traveling to the frozen north to be challenged by Harewood.

[Jedi088]

Has anyone got a reasonable definition for Grassroots motorsport . Novas to 6R4s is quite a wide range I thought it covered local events for cheap to buy/run machines not travelling all over the country for competition with a car worth ten's of thousands .

[MIKE HEATH]

I have competed in various M.G. Mostly a Metro that cost a 3 figure sum and have been up against guys who towed there cars behind motorhomes, we all thought we competed "grassroots", although some competitors thought I was taking it to serously as I had a roll cage, 4 point harness and bucket seat.

So it would seem different people have a different view on "grassroots"

[ss_collins]

Grassroots is any regional/local series, the stuff only walsh prevents - its local association - are not invited to run there, but the midlands are?

[Anuauto]

The concern over Shelsley and Prescott in particular (and the reason why some club competitors will not support the Shelsley appeal) is the absence of one day set aside for club regional championships etc(Regional Association championships and cross region club championships like the former CCC, now Circuit Driver and former MM, now 7oaks). Gurston, the closest hill to the largest population, (contrary to what has been said earlier on this forum) does not run regional classes and does not run a true club day or weekend with road car classes,its local regional association the ACSMC etc. -but will include competitors from the midlands at all meetings? Its hardly a fair balance?

[hillclimber26]

If all hillclimb venues invited all championships then meetings would get vastly oversubscribed and that is not fair to competitors. If Shelsley or whoever does not invite some championships then it should not matter as other venues clearly do invite you and you have a better chance of an entry. As an organiser you are more likely to give entries to competitors entered in the 'bigger' championships than in the smaller ones. It also costs a lot to put on a meeting and this can have an impact on how many meetings you can run in a year and possibly hence the reason why some places don't run more club days as they run more natioanl rounds?!?

[ss_collins]

Hill-26 the clubbie series tend to get more entries than the national ones. Especially if they are local. Seeing as the local series can put up a decent (profitable) entry at a fairly bland place like north weald then a massive entry could be assured if walsh invited the local series like what wiscombe does.

[Gizmo]

I think it should be borne in mind that Shelsley does not have a problem in attracting entries...just the opposite. The dilemna the club then faces is how many to accept...take too few = reduced income, take too many...the whole event can become unviable with little or no time held in reserve in case of lengthy delays due to offs (a situation that can occur all too often with lots of relatively inexperienced drivers). Next comes the temptation to eat into and sometimes overrun the lunchtime, not a problem if you are in the paddock area most of the day with access to food, drink and toilets but a major problem if you are a marshal, out on the hill sometimes from 8:30/9:00 ish in the morning to nigh on 6pm with little or no break. With fatigue comes lack of alertness, a situation that can lead to great danger for both drivers and marshals alike.
Sorry to bang on about the marshalling side but this was an ideal opportunity to illustrate the mechanism by which motorsport is losing marshals at an alarming rate, I fully understand that the vast majority of drivers wholly support the lot of marshals but sometimes they are unaware of the full facts and it can seem as if the marshals are just moaning.
There you go, semi rant over.

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by Gizmo
I think it should be borne in mind that Shelsley does not have a problem in attracting entries...just the opposite. The dilemna the club then faces is how many to accept...take too few = reduced income, take too many...the whole event can become unviable with little or no time held in reserve in case of lengthy delays due to offs (a situation that can occur all too often with lots of relatively inexperienced drivers). Next comes the temptation to eat into and sometimes overrun the lunchtime, not a problem if you are in the paddock area most of the day with access to food, drink and toilets but a major problem if you are a marshal, out on the hill sometimes from 8:30/9:00 ish in the morning to nigh on 6pm with little or no break. With fatigue comes lack of alertness, a situation that can lead to great danger for both drivers and marshals alike.
Sorry to bang on about the marshalling side but this was an ideal opportunity to illustrate the mechanism by which motorsport is losing marshals at an alarming rate, I fully understand that the vast majority of drivers wholly support the lot of marshals but sometimes they are unaware of the full facts and it can seem as if the marshals are just moaning.
There you go, semi rant over.

I knew if I waited long enough, someone would use all the right words without me having to think of them or even put them in the right order!!

The only points that Gizmo may have missed ( I stress MAY as I do not have all the facts) are;
1) that Shelsley may be limited as to how many days they may run under the current lease.
2) Shelsley attracts far more spectators than I ever see at any other hillclimbs (5000+ is quite regular!!)

So, can they run more meetings or, would they want meetings that did not attract (and maybe put off) spectators? A fine line to tread.

[rdjones]

I have never been hillclimbing, but I just happen to free on both weekends that the British Championship visit's Harewood, so as it is only about 15 miles away from me I am going to take look.

[Gizmo]

Thanks Stu, I have no knowledge of whether Shelsley have a limit on days they can run and so couldn`t comment, I can say that it is problem we endure at Prescott. Not just on days we can run but hours in the day with a limit on how early we start and a requirement for a period during the day with no engines running...it can become quite a nightmare.
Didn`t know the figures but indeed SW does attract a healthy amount of spectators and so your final point is particularly pertinant, a fine line indeed.

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by rdjones
I have never been hillclimbing, but I just happen to free on both weekends that the British Championship visit's Harewood, so as it is only about 15 miles away from me I am going to take look.

I'll be there for the two day meeting (maybe the one day, not sure yet). Be sure to announce yourself to the marshals and ask for the Crazy Midlander!!! You will receive a true ten-tenths welcome !!!

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by Gizmo
and so your final point is particularly pertinant, a fine line indeed.

There he goes again !!!! using words I struggle even pronounce, let alone spell!!

But yes, we (as marshals) would love more days at local events with a wide range of cars at all of them but, and this is the Big But, the clubs have to make money and sometimes supporting grass-roots (however one defines it) is not always viable.

In the perfect world etc etc etc !!

but to answer Fireblade from earlier:

The joke wears a bit thin watching a class of 27 Ginettas making four runs a day at such venues like Loton for example.

Yes it does and I would be the first to agree with you. Please trust me, give a British Championship round one day of your time and you may, just may, change your opinion.

[Pike]

Don`t worry Crazystu - Gizmo aint spelt pertinent right either!!!

[Anuauto]

Point being missed - again - that will bring the sport to a halt in the UK if not addressed. Grass roots are dying, mainly from lack of venues. If UK events consist of stage rallies full of WRC cars and hill climbs full of near-F1 racing cars there is no one to fill the entry when all the rich old men die off.....

[Fireblade]

Originally posted by crazystu
The only points that Gizmo may have missed ( I stress MAY as I do not have all the facts) are;
1) that Shelsley may be limited as to how many days they may run under the current lease.
2) Shelsley attracts far more spectators than I ever see at any other hillclimbs (5000+ is quite regular!!)

So, can they run more meetings or, would they want meetings that did not attract (and maybe put off) spectators? A fine line to tread.

To answer your questions, yes, the MAC are limited on the number of event days per year under the current lease agreement. This may change - but not for certain - when the new lease is finally settled. Still some way to go on that I believe.

Then there is always the case of "over egging" the pudding. If they put on more events would it devalue the existing formats? Would the large attendance diminish per meeting and the MAC end up having the same gate spread across more meeeting? Not economic that last one is it really?

Talking of which - Anyone know who won the Shelsley 2 Jags Raffle that Stirling was going to been drawn today at Stoneleigh? If it was me I suppose I would know by now.

[Gizmo]

Originally posted by Anuauto
Point being missed - again - that will bring the sport to a halt in the UK if not addressed. Grass roots are dying, mainly from lack of venues. If UK events consist of stage rallies full of WRC cars and hill climbs full of near-F1 racing cars there is no one to fill the entry when all the rich old men die off.....

To generalise is indeed to miss the point, take a look at a hillclimb programme and see the diverse array of machinery on view...you will see that hillclimbs are not "full" of near F1 racing cars ( a contradictory term if ever there was one!) as you claim. As for rich old men...at this years British Hillclimb Championship dinner, the championship co-ordinator remarked to me how pleased he was to see so many young people present, the vast majority of whom compete.

Could it be that this is indeed grass roots motorsport and also that it is growing and not dying as you suggest...perhaps that is the point that is being missed?

We all have our own view of what grassroots means...after all one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist!

I think that fireblade has picked up on the nuance that crazystu and I have been alluding to.

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by Gizmo

I think that fireblade has picked up on the nuance that crazystu and I have been alluding to.

There he goes again!!!! using words i've never even heard of!!!

But I think Gizmo is right, there are more "paupers" than "princes" in Hillclimbing and to me, that makes it a Grassroots form of motorsport. Yes, some entrants are rich but the majority are not!!

[icklimp]

Stu - you don't understand the majority of what anyone says anyway, do you? Don't make Gizmo think he's special, it'll only end in tears!

I haven't been to Shelsey for a few years but from what I recall it has plenty of 'grassroots' competitors, with plenty of oppurtunity for the smaller/less expensive cars to come out and play, and on the weekend with the VSCC there was always a National B/Clubmans day as well, or am I missing the point?

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by icklimp
Stu - you don't understand the majority of what anyone says anyway, do you?

I could take offense at that !!!!!!

should i ???

[Anuauto]

It is extremely worrying for the future of the sport that anyone believes reference can be made to that sort of expenditure in competing as "grass roots". It is exactly the problem that allows the (not democratically-elected but soon to be forced to be so by EU and other pressures?) MSC into pretence that because some new burden is "not too significant to the average competition budget" it is in some way acceptable. The challenge to the Shelsley Walshes, Prescotts and Gurstons of this world is simple: one day for a lengthy list (not a token one)of true club championships that will fill an entry and an absence of those entrants who seem to appear at every event. Rich young men wont be enough when the rich old ones are gone!

[icklimp]

Most competitors I know are 25-40 so I don't think age is the problem, and as Shelsley only has 5 weekends of competing about 20% of that time is given to more grassroot events - but to get back on topic the thread is meant to be celebrating hillclimbs not mounting a debate on how they are failing

Stu - yes take offence by all means but it wasn't intended (much)

[ss_collins]

A series such as the Sevenoaks Speed, has as diverse a range of cars as any meeting could hope for. See what 'grass roots' entries were like when they had a venue worthy of crowds here:

http://www.sevenoaksmotorclub.com/results/cp000529.html

and what a 'grass roots' entry is like when we don't have a good venue


http://www.sevenoaksmotorclub.com/results/nw021020.html

Both are good but the latter is made up of the usual faces locally, from minis to WRC's, and a bunch of single seaters too. But the sport is in crisi as venues are becoming very scarce indeed, recent years have seen the loss of Crystal Palace, Valence, and Pestolozzi in the south. And the ver successful classes that ran there (and attracted decent crowds) are stuck with Airfields.

Its a bitter pill to swallow when Wlash get 1.5 million (or is trying to) the nearest hill and local classes can't run, especially when three good hills have been lost to the classes.

[josvandeperre]

Pestalozzi did have the disadvantage of a hairpin that very cars could get around as I recall.....