The reunification. How would you do it? - Page 2

MLM · 24 Jan 2004, 17:38 (Ref:849445)

Quote:

Originally posted by Rob Buhl
I do miss road racing. Portland and Mid-Ohio are wonderful precision tracks.

You would know

OK, what other tracks would you like to see on a schedule AND do you think the road course at Indy could be a potential track in the future?

Jay · 24 Jan 2004, 18:03 (Ref:849461)

Quote:

Originally posted by Ac.
Funny how over here in the IRL forums the discussions regarding unification are pretty even, while over on the Champ Car side the pro IRL's call for the downfall of all things CART.

I know! A bit odd...

To be honest, if it has 50% or more road/street courses I'll follow it. But, I'm just not an oval fan, period. I sometimes don't even watch CART's oval event from boredom.

Quote:

Originally posted by sgw2
But the reality is Canada and Mexico will add as many as five cars to the IRL grid.

I don't know about that... Player's is gone and they were the reason for two of the drivers in CART, and I don't think PT will be in open-wheel racing much longer. There aren't too many other Canadian (or American for that matter) sponsors that are willing to step up... so I can't see where Canada's contribution will come from?

macdaddy · 24 Jan 2004, 20:06 (Ref:849536)

A few weeks ago, somebody rumoured a Canadian bank...

Jay · 24 Jan 2004, 21:41 (Ref:849611)

It's a possibility I suppose, but they haven't had much involvement in the sport (or many others), so it would be suprising... Still, let's hope so someone steps up (although preferably in CART)!

DaveOrama · 24 Jan 2004, 22:30 (Ref:849652)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sgw2
[B]Manwell,

Yes I'm serious. It is actually a drag to even have Mexican and Canadian races, because so many sponsors consider them outside their marketing and sales territories (those belong to other marketing/sales divisions who rarely help with the funding - prime example is Toyota of Canada refusing to help Toyota USA with CART funding ever). But the reality is Canada and Mexico will add as many as five cars to the IRL grid. Like Motegi - the price for Honda support - it has an effect on the entry list.

This stand is unpopular with international folks, but it is the correct business call. Only add races outside the US if they add something to the series (e.g., Motegi adds Honda and perhaps 2 extra cars to all IRL races). One Mexican and one canadian race could each add a couple of cars. Europe and Australia add zero. Since IMS has plenty of money, unlike CART, the proposal to pay the sanctioning body cash and thus trump the business case, holds no water. There is no partnership. Deals like Surfers (which as these go was a rare success) are what destroyed CART.
--------------------------------------------------------
Forgive me if I haven't done this correctly, but this is the first time I've used the quote button.
Fair enough, but in a world where globalisation is the catchword, and satellite / internet marketing is allowing US products into other markets (i.e. Australia for one) the marketing geniuses realise that they need to cater for those markets - it will happen it is a "world market".

I'll stand corrected, but I believe Australians bought a couple of cars to the IRL even though the team name has Andretti in it now...

GP Racer · 26 Jan 2004, 14:15 (Ref:851091)

I don't think to many people can argue about the popularity of going to Australia each year, (wish I could!)but I think at the present time, with open wheel racing holding on by a shoe-string, it maybe time to stengthen up the home front, for abit.

This new series, should it get done, needs to re-connect to the core fan base here in the US, before it thinks about going global. There are alot of wounds to heal, and if there not healed with the fans here, the series will fold. We all know how many fans have been lost over these years to NASCAR, and the only way to get them back is to market the hell out of this new series here at home. There is alot of room for growth right here for open wheel, so I don't see an immediate need to go global.

If the series strengthens itself here, than it can start branching out, but right now, the American fan needs open wheels undivided attention from this American series...

climb · 26 Jan 2004, 14:21 (Ref:851102)

100% agrre with you GP Racer.
If you want to rebuilt a crashed house, you got to start from the foundations.

GP Racer · 26 Jan 2004, 18:29 (Ref:851391)

Quote:

Originally posted by climb
100% agrre with you GP Racer.
If you want to rebuilt a crashed house, you got to start from the foundations.

As a construction worker, I'm qualified to say that your analogy is quite correct climb!

3state · 2 Feb 2004, 03:32 (Ref:859671)

Some people (within the US not surprisingly) suggest abandoning the international races, in spite of their insane popularity and the fact that they do bring tremendous sponsorship potential.

Leave markets like Australia or Mexico and you can forget about EVER returning. The international viewing puplic, which incidentally is far larger than that within the United States (sorry to burst your bubble but regardless of how economically powerful the US is, its population is merely 3 percent of the world's total population) will move on to other things. I know I would. Here in australia, V8 Supercars are going from strength to strength as is the formula 1 race in Melbourne. It American Open wheel left Australia it could never ever return.

Those people who state that it has to remain US-based allude to the sponsors, whom they assume are entirely US companies with an interest only in the US market. Again sorry to burst your bubble, but the corporate sponsors a unified series needs to be chasing are global, many former US companies now have no national allegiance or associations. They realise that the US is only a part, however significant or a much larger, and growing global market. Formula 1, Soccer (football) prove the power of the global corporate dollar. Both these sports had humble national origins, but are now truly global. I think its time to realise that your viewership (esp with CART is far larger outside the US than within.)

People may cite CART's problems in going global (actually they were successful in most of the markets they entered), but fail to realise that there were many other extunuating circumstances as to why they failed in say, Europe. Ir was half-hearted, they didn't have the capital or the long-term plan. I still think it would succeed in Europe. So why abandon markets which are already far more successful than most of the US courses, and where are tremendous amount of viewer and corporate goodwill has been fostered? Crazy and short-sighted imho

GP Racer · 2 Feb 2004, 13:48 (Ref:860105)

Putting your subtle anti-American feelings aside for a moment 3state, how long would you watch Australian V8 Supercars if it had all non-Australian drivers in it, and was travelling the world to keep sponsors happy?

Not very long is my guess, as that series is Australian, and the fan base is Australian, and Australian fans expect to see Australian drivers, racing at Australian venues. Pretty simple formula for success isn't it?

Every series has a fan base, and it cannot be ignored, like CART has done here. The results speak for themselves.

If Australia is so hot for Champ Cars, maybe they should have put in a bid...

rustyfan · 2 Feb 2004, 14:28 (Ref:860149)

Good TV coverage is rather essential to build an interest as well. Last year I got both live IndyCar (commercial free) and live Champ Cars - in 2004 I don't think I'll get any of them live and will probably have to settle for crappy one-hour highlight reels delayed one week.

Not the best way to keep your interest in a series peaked, I can tell you that.

Oh well, at least I'll get all MotoGP and Nextel Cup races live

BootsOntheSide · 2 Feb 2004, 15:53 (Ref:860231)

Where does 3state say anything anti-American? The observation that only 3% of the world's population live in America (perfectly true)? The point that the non-US races have been successful (true)? The fact that the world is becoming more interlinked, especially from a business perspective (also true)?

CART was never a fully American series though. They raced in Canada from the early days, and guys like Emmo, Fabi, Jacques Villenueve Snr, Boesel, Tracy and Mansell were frontrunners long before the IRl started. The roots are American, and perhaps that should've been heeded more, but why shouldn't they have branched out into successful overseas races. NONE of those were set up to keep sponsors happy, except for Motegi,and the IRL stuck with that (breaking its core US-only principle in the process).

GP Racer · 2 Feb 2004, 16:51 (Ref:860267)

Quote:

Originally posted by GP Racer
I don't think to many people can argue about the popularity of going to Australia each year, (wish I could!)but I think at the present time, with open wheel racing holding on by a shoe-string, it maybe time to stengthen up the home front, for abit.

This new series, should it get done, needs to re-connect to the core fan base here in the US, before it thinks about going global. There are alot of wounds to heal, and if there not healed with the fans here, the series will fold. We all know how many fans have been lost over these years to NASCAR, and the only way to get them back is to market the hell out of this new series here at home. There is alot of room for growth right here for open wheel, so I don't see an immediate need to go global.

If the series strengthens itself here, than it can start branching out, but right now, the American fan needs open wheels undivided attention from this American series...

I stand by this post boots. I think its fine to take some races overseas, and to have an international field of drivers, when times are good, but they are anything but good at the moment. Open wheel racing needs to recapture there roots, and give the American fan a reason to care. We're in a losing battle with NASCAR, that will not get better by jetting around the world. No matter how successful a foreign race is, it alone will not support this series.

PS - I found 3States "burst my bubble" comments condescending, and how he minimizes the importance of America to an American series. I wouldn't dare have the nerve to tell him how he should feel about Aussie V8 Supercars, should they take a CART like turn, and I wouldn't tell an Englishman, that he shouldn't worry about not having an English driver or English venue left in F1, because, afterall, the Chinese GP is such a success. How could I possibly understand?

dretceterini · 2 Feb 2004, 19:01 (Ref:860394)

The 2 series are as different as G/A and IMSA. Now that "CART" is back on track, the only competition between them is for sponsor's dollars.

3state · 5 Feb 2004, 01:43 (Ref:863509)

GP Racer. You accusation of anti-American bias on my part is unwarranted and doesn't pose an argument. The relative scale of the US market to the international market and the global presence of corporations is a statement of fact. Where's the anti-American bias in that?

As to the V8 Supercars, they are becoming international, which is inevitable. Already there is a race in New Zealand, and while i don't closely follow it, I believe this year, they will hold two races in Asia. There are a small number of non-Australian drivers (Max Wilson, the ex-cart driver is in the series for instance is quite popular) and crews in the series and this will only grow.

Its inevitable that to achieve critical mass, to reach or appeal to a growing international audience, which may alreadsy exceed the home audience in scale, and to satisfy sponsors, they must look to become international in focus. There are Australians that are against the changes in V8 supercars but I see it as a natural part of the sport's evolution in an increasingly global market.

So GP, I suggest that before you go bandying around the usual and predictable accusation of ant-Americanism on my part, you may want to discuss and refute the statements of fact and arguments relating to them that I've raised. Attack the post and not the poster I believe it's called????

3state · 5 Feb 2004, 01:54 (Ref:863518)

That all being said, and re-reading my original post, I do retract and apologise for the 'burst my bubble' statement GP - I find that you do speak a lot of reasoned sense on these forums, even if I don't always agree.

We Australians do tend to speak rather directly and plainly and it wasn't intended to be condescending. I was slightly annoyed that people would suggest that the international market is irrelevant when it has been the most successful aspect of CART in recent years. It seemed blinkered to me. Your comments however, are valid as a possible course of action, and OWRS will no doubt, have to make drastic decisions. My intended point was that it seems like desperate surgery - cutting off healthy parts of the body to save the terminal parts.

I would argue to maintain the international races as they stand as they are successful, not venture into any new markets for near future, least until there is positive cashflow and stabilisation, and work on rebuilding the core US market (which imho should remain the core). Once it's all stable, then start pursuing a natural and evolutionary market-driven growth.

Again, apologies for any unintended condacenscion.

GP Racer · 5 Feb 2004, 02:29 (Ref:863540)

Quote:

Originally posted by 3state
That all being said, and re-reading my original post, I do retract and apologise for the 'burst my bubble' statement GP - I find that you do speak a lot of reasoned sense on these forums, even if I don't always agree.

We Australians do tend to speak rather directly and plainly and it wasn't intended to be condescending. I was slightly annoyed that people would suggest that the international market is irrelevant when it has been the most successful aspect of CART in recent years. It seemed blinkered to me. Your comments however, are valid as a possible course of action, and OWRS will no doubt, have to make drastic decisions. My intended point was that it seems like desperate surgery - cutting off healthy parts of the body to save the terminal parts.

I would argue to maintain the international races as they stand as they are successful, not venture into any new markets for near future, least until there is positive cashflow and stabilisation, and work on rebuilding the core US market (which imho should remain the core). Once it's all stable, then start pursuing a natural and evolutionary market-driven growth.

Again, apologies for any unintended condacenscion.

No problem 3 State!

I apoligise also. Sometimes its hard to read how a person intends a post to sound over the internet.

I think your last paragraph makes it clear that we agree, much more that we disagree on this matter. I just would like to see a resolution that all the parties would feel good about. I'll see you at Surfers one day!

Cheers!

3state · 5 Feb 2004, 03:09 (Ref:863561)

That's true re: the sense of trying to gauge the tone of a post.

I do regret the 'burst the bubble' statement. I can also say that equally it doesn't serve as the basis for an argument and was totally unwarranted. That post was stimply a 'stream of consciousness' poured out and clearly warranted rereading before commiting it..I should've been more tactful.

So thanks GP!

I look forward to seeing you down here! I have to tell you that when it comes to your beer, I am anti-American

So at Surfers let me shout (buy) you a few decent aussie beers instead.

( and no fosters - it's revolting and despite the international perception, no one here drinks it)...

3state · 5 Feb 2004, 03:13 (Ref:863563)

no, scrap that, Belgian beer for the most part leaves Australian beer for dead. A few belgian beers then.

GP Racer · 5 Feb 2004, 15:18 (Ref:864136)

I'm ready to get on a plane now, before this next snow storm we're expecting gets here, 3state!

And don't worry about the beer, as long as its got water, hops, barley, and malt, I'll be fine!

Cheers!

MLM · 5 Feb 2004, 17:53 (Ref:864305)

I found out in another thread that Foster's isn't really "Australian for Beer"

Personally, 3state, I'd rather have some of those splendid wines you Aussies produce down under.

Back to topic, is it me or does the OWRS seem rather disorganized and doesn't really appear to know entirely what they're doing? :confused:
I mean, I would have thought the 3 Amigos would have had a plan in place and ready to go. Naive or wishful thinking on my part?

Instead, we have a plethora of rumours as to what teams are or are NOT running, who's buying (or not buying, in the case of Emmo?) what team, which races will or WON'T be on the schedule, who will or WON'T be driving, etc..
I still don't see anything concrete that gives me confidence in OWRS. I know, we're supposed to have announcements next week.

But you know what, I'm still skeptical.

(I'm sure GP will probably agree with me,also )

macdaddy · 5 Feb 2004, 17:57 (Ref:864308)

Straying off-topic, are we MLM?

MLM · 5 Feb 2004, 18:10 (Ref:864324)

Quote:

Originally posted by macdaddy
Straying off-topic, are we MLM?

Excuse me but this topic seemed to have veered off in several directions.
Seems your comment could have appeared a little earlier in this thread, IMO.

I said it before...I think unification is the only answer for OW racing in this country.
One series seems to have it's act together.
One series doesn't. Seems to me someone should get their act together and soon or we'll be going through this mess yet again.
Perhaps I should have stated THAT before

BTW, I'm glad GP and 3state came to an accord and used a little humour to "seal the deal".
Nothing wrong with a little humour, eh?

macdaddy · 5 Feb 2004, 18:26 (Ref:864340)

You're probably right, eh! And trust me - nobody enjoys a little humour more than I do! True, beer is off-topic. But OWRS belongs on this board no more than IRL belongs on the other board, and because others have already been editted, we gotta "stick to our guns".

"Reunification" is kinda a moot term right now, anyway.

Don't misunderstand - I wasn't meaning to single you out!
Just didn't want the thread to take a turn-for-the-worse.

And now, back to topic...
(Which was, I think, beer)!

MLM · 5 Feb 2004, 19:40 (Ref:864438)

Fair enough. Enough people are getting their knickers in a wad over "this is the wrong forum.Go post in the other forum" (and my take is "geez, get a grip folks"

)

Actually, I was talking about wine and not beer, hehe

I do mean what I said about Australian wines. I've had some mighty tasty Aussie chardonnays and shirazs.