A turn for the better?

[jjspierx]

Originally posted by GP Racer
Rusty, I think your correct. The IRL will race at Long Beach this season. Grand Am will be ready to fill in some of the other road courses this year, because they're ready to do that now, and come 2005, both series will be running together.

I'm not arguing the fact that Gran-Am will partner with the IRL, but how is the IRL supposed to run at Long Beach this season? They don't have chassis's developed yet for road courses, and they already are scheduled the weekend of the LBGP.

[jjspierx]

Originally posted by Down F0rce
Long Beach I can understand...I hope they do win that one actually. But what use are the engines? :confused:

He has no use for the engines. The only reason he wants them is so OWRS cannot continue to function as a racing series. It is strictly a strategic business move on TG's part, but it makes his motives obvious, that he is not trying to merge, or unify open-wheel racing, but he is trying to destroy his competition.

[jjspierx]

Originally posted by GP Racer
And sadly, you are correct about the die-hards, most will not come over. But there is a chance of gaining many of the more casual, couch potato fans, that are looking to kick-back with a beer and watch a race on a Sunday afternoon. The open wheel championship will be unified and it will become important again, and they will watch.

I also read many of the negative, to put it mildly, comments from the die-hards, and my opinion on things, have been the butt of many of the negative posts there. There hatred is blinding them to what may wind up being what we wanted all along, one strong series. It will be there loss if they don't give it a chance.

The open-wheel championship will not be any more unified if TG forces OWRS out of the picture, I'm not sure why people think this. The only difference is, CART/OWRS will be no more, there will be no merging or unifying, simply the dying off of a competing series. This will not make the IRL championship any more important, and it will not make more people watch. Anybody who watches exclusviely CART/OWRS, will probably not watch IRL after OWRS is out of the picture(assuming that happens.) People who watch IRL AND CART, will continue to watch both as long as they can. And of course, those who watch just the IRL will continue to watch just the IRL. The only fans TG will be adding to his fanbase, are maybe the OWRS fans who will tune in to watch the roadraces. Right now, fans already have the choice to watch both, so if they don't watch the IRL now, why would they watch it after OWRS is out of the picture?

Also, your comment about us all wanting "one strong series" isn't necessarily correct. Most of us OWRS just want to watch a good variety of road courses and ovals. If TG were to run 50/50 road courses and ovals, than I think most of us would have much less of a problem with the loss of OWRS. But the fact is, TG will only run select few token road races, and if thats the case, than no, you are wrong, we don't all want one strong series that runs almost all ovals.

[GP Racer]

JJ, you can go on blaming TG for all of CART's wo's, but the fact of the matter is, it was the gross mis-management of the series by Craig, Heitzler, and Pook, that truly doomed this series, and that had a far more profound impact on the condition of this bankrupt series than TG ever could have had. They still had a great product, even after TG started the IRL, but they blew it big-time! And now OWRS continues that miserable trend.

They could have shut TG out of this, if they had just made a reasonable offer, that would have given the stockholders something. Instead they low-balled it, and now TG is calling them on it. Thats called smart business. I say take it, and end the misery.

What is going to be different about the OWRS plan, than Pooks 100 million dollar blunder? Spike TV? Yeah, there's a winner. Doesn't PG's stewardship, or lack of, over the Trans Am series concern anyone over there, about his ability to run a series? I mean you have to have some serious blinders on, not to see the red flags that puts up.

You can go on about thinking that OWRS is somehow going to bring back the glory days, but realistically, there isn't a snowballs chance in hell you'll ever see that again. I'm definetely for one series, its the only way either side stands a chance...

[rustyfan]

Originally posted by jjspierx
They don't have chassis's developed yet for road courses,

From what I know, they do (the modified chassis is going to be used starting with Indianapolis this season), and if they put in an effort with backing from the IRL, the teams would also have time to do the necessary road course testing well in time for...

Originally posted by jjspierx
and they already are scheduled the weekend of the LBGP.

...a race at Long Beach held some time during the late summer or autumn. It isn't New England we're talking about here - it's California, and I'm quite certain they could stage a rescheduled race late in the year and still have pleasant race-worthy temperatures.

[jjspierx]

I do not blame TG for CART's current situation. While he did hurt both series initially with the IRL split, you are quite correct about the gross-mismanagment of CART which let to its demise, and the situation it is currently in. However, I disagree with you on Pook's dooming of CART. CART would not have even had a 2003 season if a serious amount of money was not spent. CART(under Pook)seriously helped fund a number of the teams, and yes they were paying for the TV coverage, and of course they promoted some of the events themselves, but I don't see any other way that the series could have continued without these spendings. Pook came in at the worst possible time for CART and did all he could to keep the series afloat. You can argue that there are certain things he could have done to cut costs, or reduce the number of races, but ultimately, CART still would have lost upwards of 50 million, and it would still be in the situation that it is in now. And while I don't agree with the way the bankruptcy is being handled, that still doesn't mean I'm just going to happily accept TG's killing off of the only premiere open-wheel road course series in America.

As for the Spike TV deal, I'm not sure why its been given such a bad rap before it has even been publicly announced. First of all, Spike TV reaches more homes in America than SpeedTV. Second of all, its not as if Spike TV is OWRS's number one choice for a television cable station, obviously they would like to be on FOX, or CBS, or any network station for that matter, but its not financially viable.

Also, PG will not be running the OWRS series. He is obviously more of a figurehead than anything. He has money, the desire to run a series, and he is a good speaker. I think most of us know that Forsythe will be an integral role in the running of the series. And to be honest, when it comes down to it, I could care less WHO runs the series, as long as the racing is good, its telvised on SOME station, and as long as its at least 50% road courses. Also, I don't care if CART ever goes back to its "glory days". I just want for their to remain an premiere open-wheel racing series in America that runs road coures, and that makes enough money to ensure the survival of the series and took attract sponsors and a decent television package. I believe that can still happen.

I can't speak for the other diehard champcar fans, but I do not see everything through rose tinted glass, do not think everything happening right now is TG's fault, I simply believe that it is still possible for road racing in Open-wheel race cars to flourish in America. And whether that happens with OWRS, or another series that starts a few years down the road, it WILL happen.

[jjspierx]

Originally posted by rustyfan
From what I know, they do (the modified chassis is going to be used starting with Indianapolis this season), and if they put in an effort with backing from the IRL, the teams would also have time to do the necessary road course testing well in time for...

...a race at Long Beach held some time during the late summer or autumn. It isn't New England we're talking about here - it's California, and I'm quite certain they could stage a rescheduled race late in the year and still have pleasant race-worthy temperatures.

Well everything I've read, even quotes I seem to remember from George himself, have stated that IRL is not ready to go road racing in 2004. Also, rescheduling a street course, is not as simple as rescheduling a permanent road course. The whole city block has to be rearranged, and makes that part of the city unusable for a week. I highly doubt that could rescheduled this late in the game, but I could be wrong.

[rustyfan]

Originally posted by jjspierx
I just want for their to remain an premiere open-wheel racing series in America that runs road coures, and that makes enough money to ensure the survival of the series and took attract sponsors and a decent television package.

That's the problem; money. Not even a united series will make money from the get-go - regardless of what "your" particular open-wheel series look like, you have to count on losing money in the beginning (and probably for some time), and if there is something TG has going for him and the IRL, it's money, seeing as the Brickyard 400 alone pulls enough money each year to fund the IRL.

And if the American open-wheel climate remains a divided one, it's even harder for someone to maintain a series (in particular if you lack the financial backing TG has).

Sure, OWRS might be able to convince the judge to let them keep Champ Car racing going for 2004, but I somehow doubt they will be able to spend the kind of money they have to spend in order to keep Champ Car afloat for 2004 and beyond - if they indeed get the judge to rule in their favor, that is.

[rustyfan]

Originally posted by jjspierx
Well everything I've read, even quotes I seem to remember from George himself, have stated that IRL is not ready to go road racing in 2004. Also, rescheduling a street course, is not as simple as rescheduling a permanent road course. The whole city block has to be rearranged, and makes that part of the city unusable for a week. I highly doubt that could rescheduled this late in the game, but I could be wrong.

If TG puts enough green on the table, I'm quite positive the Long Beach city officials would be more than happy to assist in any way they can.

[jjspierx]

American open-wheel racing may be divided right now, but the killing off of OWRS will not make the series, unified. Already to the casual race fan, who didn't get(or watch) Speed Channel in 2003, they probably watched IRL thinking it was the only form of open-wheel racing. With OWRS out of the picture, the casual fan isn't even going to notice. I think we all agree that us "hardcore fans" are a tiny percentage of the race fans out there, and it is mainly us who know the difference. Maybe both series won't be able to make money seperately, but the killing off of OWRS is not the way to make the IRL bigger, and to make money. Sure maybe the IRL will make more money now that they are going to have a few more road races, but it will have nothing to do with the fact the OWRS is out of the picture.

[jjspierx]

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...l=970081593064

That is a link to an article where Fred Nation, IRL spokesperson states confirms that the IRL has no intentions of racing at LB in 2004.

[GP Racer]

JJ, I hardly know what to say on the matter anymore, that I havn't already said.

I don't believe the IRL is the perfect answer, but in this sad chapter there isn't one to be had. I do believe though that they represent the last, best, and greatest hope for a new and fresh start. And if they win, this year will only be a start. The series that we would like to see come out of this will take some years to create. But they will be exciting years to watch, as the series builds itself up, to become one of the strongest out there, and maybe even rival NASCAR.

The best drivers, teams, and sponsors, from ALL of open wheel, at the best venues, racing in big fields of 25 or more cars, a fat schedule of 25 races, with full stands, a big TV contract, and the Indy 500 is back again as the centerpiece of all that important in open wheel racing here.

It won't happen right away, but the IRL, is the best situated to get the ball rolling in that direction again. And if only half of that happens, it will be better than the mess we have presently.

[Snrub]

I'm a CART fan and I make no secret of that, but I'm a CART fan because of what they did and do now. I would very much like it if the IRL had better racing. The problem is it doesn't. In terms of supporting the idea that CART die and the IRL be all that's left, I can't do it because I have no reason to believe it would be particularly good.

One would probably assume that a decent amount of development has been done on the IRL chasis for now. Essentially to run on a road/stree course they need bigger brake calipers and probably steel rotors (continue to use ceramic on ovals, just like CART). They need to direct more air into the radiator and probably brakes too. Then again, lowering the power of the engine should reduce its operating temperature, so cooling might be easier. I'm guessing the steering would need to be changed too. I would also guess the wheel lock cannot go beyond a few degrees. Given the amount of downforce produced by IRL cars I imagine that would be fine at lower speeds. The "road/street" package doesn't nessissarly have to be 100% of what it would evolve into, just enough to get the job done.

I think an underrated problem with IRL at road and especially street courses will be the engines. The engines are primarly designed to run withing 300rpm for the course of a race. Any naturally aspirated 700hp 3.5L engine will be peaky, but I imagine an IRL engine even more so. Now you reduce the displacement to 3.0L and with it peak power and run on a road/street course. I wonder if the engine suppliers would run different cams on a non-oval? Have they developed this?

[GP Racer]

Snrub, I havn't heard much, if anything about any changes being made to the engines for road courses. Only the drop to 3.0 engines, but that will happen even if they don't go road racing. Maybe they'll be doing more with the rear end gearing to give them the low and mid-range punch they will need? I'm quite sure they will have it figured out if it comes, because they wouldn't want to be embarrased by a poor performance.

I like both forms of racing really. I used to only be a CART guy, but I got caught up in some of the 3 wide, plenty of passing, dramatic finishes they had in the IRL, and I have to say, it is pretty good.

I think its OK to like both, even though alot of guys look down at you for it.

[jjspierx]

Originally posted by GP Racer


The best drivers, teams, and sponsors, from ALL of open wheel, at the best venues, racing in big fields of 25 or more cars, a fat schedule of 25 races, with full stands, a big TV contract, and the Indy 500 is back again as the centerpiece of all that important in open wheel racing here.

It won't happen right away, but the IRL, is the best situated to get the ball rolling in that direction again. And if only half of that happens, it will be better than the mess we have presently.

See, to me, I don't care, if the a series has big teams, and big sponsors, if they are running almost all ovals, it just doesn't appeal to me. You can argue that an all oval series has the "best drivers" as you put it, but I doubt it, and of course we will never know because the drivers will never have the oppurtunity to showcase it. TG has said, the IRL will continue to be predominantly ovals, so in several years as you say after the ball has been rolling for awhile, us road-racing fans will STILL be left with an Open-wheel series that is mostly oval, so why should we support this attempt at killing off our series? Even though it doesn't have the prestige it once had, it's still an open-wheel road racing series. I'd rather watch an ailing road-racing series, than a powerhouse IRL with 25 races, TONS of drivers, teams, sponsors, prestige and the Indy 500. That may be you're dream, but its surely not mine, or most of us in the Champcar forums. Heck, if I wanted to watch a series with all that, I'd just watch Nascar.

Just another point, I am not a Nascar hater, or an IRL hater. If there is no CART race on, and I'm flipping through stations and I see one of those races, I will usually watch it for bit. I just won't make sure I am home to never miss a race, like I do for CART. I also usually lose interest after 30 minutes or so of watching. And I even know most of the drivers in IRL and Nascar. I know more about the IRL and Nascar than probably 80% of its fans.
So I've already given both series a chance, I simply do not enjoy them.

[climb]

Your love for the CART thing is understandable, as well I admire you not caring about sponsors and money.
But, unfortunately it's sponsors and money that keep motorsport alive; the familiar sized CARt you say you'd enjoy just couldn't survive.
That's not me who decided that, nor, I suppose , GP racer or anyone else in this forum.
It's just that.
If you'll no more enjoy Open wheel in his new format, it's a pity, but there you go.
Many of diehard Cart fans speak as if such a change would disappoint millions and millions of fans, but numbers show that, albeit nice and warmharted, the pro-cart brigade doesn't reach a sufficient size to keep the show going on.
Like it or not, they're a minority.

[Kicking-back]

I'd support a merger if it led to

A) An 18 race calendar with 9 ovals and 9 road street/courses.

B) The same race venue only used once a season - ie no more visiting Texas Motor Speedway twice.

C) A field of 26 cars

D) Use the CART point system

E) Promote the thing properly to the public

F) Race at Surfers and Motegi, but no other events should be outside USA, Canada and Mexico.

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by climb
Your love for the CART thing is understandable, as well I admire you not caring about sponsors and money.
But, unfortunately it's sponsors and money that keep motorsport alive; the familiar sized CARt you say you'd enjoy just couldn't survive.
That's not me who decided that, nor, I suppose , GP racer or anyone else in this forum.
It's just that.
If you'll no more enjoy Open wheel in his new format, it's a pity, but there you go.
Many of diehard Cart fans speak as if such a change would disappoint millions and millions of fans, but numbers show that, albeit nice and warmharted, the pro-cart brigade doesn't reach a sufficient size to keep the show going on.
Like it or not, they're a minority.

Well said climb, its not the racing that CART puts on thats the problem, I've always enjoyed it, but its the reality of the financial situation that OWRS faces that needs to be addressed.

[Hazza]

I'd think it would be 10 - 6ish...what would it be?

Surfers
Road America
Long Beach
Miami
Mid-Ohio?
Laguna Seca

Indy
Loudon (I'd like to see)
Millwauke
Charolette
Michigan
Phoenix
Kentucky
Nashville
Richmond
Motegi

I wouldn't want to do Texas, its too fast.