Williams or RBR?

[Canberra>karter]

Originally Posted by Boro

wake me up when mw wins a race

Wake me up when MW has a championship winning team, but loses the drivers title to his teammate twice

[Boro]

actually i'm gonna take back what i say

let's see him NOT screwup a front role start by the end of lap 1 first

[ASCII Man]

Originally Posted by RaceFreak

KE30MAN sez........"I also rate Webber over DC"

YGTBSM..........

Eh?

[alf]

no way will mitch beat bridgestone this year. I think their F1 adventure will die with a whimper, especialy if there is a wet race, and as for their dry tyre all I will say is USA they will just not have the desire or need to spend on development like bridgestone. I am NO Schumacher fan, but anyone who predicted the end of an era is in for a shock. the amount of people saying " oh he has lost the desire to win... etc" RUBBISH the man doesn't know HOW to lose and is as determined as ever to win. Take his performance at Monaco last year. Rubbins and Ralph moaning because he dared race all the way to the end of the race?????? loosers! no the Bridgestone runners will be "better Shod" this term and messers Raikonen and Alonso will have a rude awakening. as for Webber being better than DC: well the stats don't say so so it aint so!!! plus DC is a realy nice bloke, I have met him 3 or 4 times and he was always a good laugh and not a prig in any way. Webber has his work cut out to repay the faith put in him to date. not imposible to put in a good show but he just seems to be a bottle merchant?? so i doubt he will be setting the racing columns alight once again. But as for the original question.. I think Williams will be stronger than RBR this year.

[Nado]

Originally Posted by alf

no way will mitch beat bridgestone this year.

I'm confident that Bridgestone will come out on top next year but you just NEVER say NEVER.

[safc_fan89]

I'd say Williams. They may be going through a lean spell but they have 2 good drivers, I'd say stronger than RBR's drivers. And if Red Bull did produce a fast car for 2006, which I don't think they will because Adrian Newey won't have a considerable impact until later in the season I reckon, Klien is not a race winner and I don't think DC is capable of winning any more. In his last 2 years at McLaren he was nearly always off the pace compared to Raikkonen.

[BootsOntheSide]

Michelin won't ease off the development of the tyres early, unless the title is settled either way several races before the end. They want to go out with a bang and make it look like the FIA have effectively forced them out. As for Indy, that was one of about 3 races out of 19 last season when they had the inferior tyre. Bridgestone now have mor ethan 1 team to help with development, so they will probably be more even. It may be similar to 2003 - a midseason 'clarification' of the rules may decide the overall outcome.

I think DC can still win races in the right situation. Things had gone stale at McLaren, DC's experience was no loonger needed, he struggled with the one-lap qualifying which is now gone (in the old qualifying style he was much stronge), and Kimi was Ron's favourite. A better question is the one posed previosuly as to when Webber will stop routinely losing places at the start. If he starts from pole and the driver who qualifies 2nd breaks down on the warm-up lap, he might lead a race.

[safc_fan89]

I don't think that Mark Webber is by any means a future world champion, but I reckon he's still better than Coulthard is. And the 'Kimi is Ron's favourite' is not much excuse. If you look at the fastest race laps in 2004 between Coulthard and Raikkonen, there is a considerable difference more often than not.

[dsg]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

...when Webber will stop routinely losing places at the start.

The answer is "as soon as he gets a better car". As he has done in all his previous teams, MW qualified the Williams further up the grid than would normally be expected. However in the races the William's poor performance and some mistakes by him dropped it back as better cars with drivers that did not qualify as well, overtook him.

I believe Bridgestone and Michelin will be quite close now tyre changes are allowed. Assuming both cars are roughly equal and even with the changes to qualifying, MW still is the best qualifier of the 2 teams and if his race performance continues from the end of last season I believe he will emerge as the top driver. Just as with DC's victories way back when, the car will be the deciding factor.

[alf]

Coulth has many race wis under his belt how many does Webber have?? many great or promising drivers never won a race Martin Brundle for 1, so untill webber has achieved what DC has He can not be compared at all, as I said the stats dont lie. As for writing DC off as a race winner , I say this: put any respected F1 driver in a Mc laren or Ferrari and they would be able to win, trust me there is a very thin line between good and great. which is demonstrated in qualifying. although as we watch it unravel a tenth of a second sounds much slower than the other guy in reality a tenth of a second is nothing and having a top car will give you that final edge every time. I race and i have some guys I can beat in the rain, and cant touch them in the dry, in the same model car.

[BootsOntheSide]

I wasn't talking about Webber's lack of relative race pace (and Nick set the faster fastest lap 8 times out of 13, not forgetting that Mark trashed his car on lap 1 at the Nurburgring). I was talking about the actual starts themselves, in which he often loses several places while his team-mate gains them. Mark is undoubtedly the fastest in qualifying trim out of he, DC and Klien, and Nico would have to be something special to match him. Webber had 2 excellent races near the end of last season, but he was anonymous in some others, although in fairness so was Pizzonia. Fortunately for Mark, he outperformed Antonio, confirming that some fo the Brazillian's commetns regarding 2003 were sour grapes.

[safc_fan89]

Last year's Williams wasn't the best of cars to be fair, so the fact that he was anonymous in many races wasn't entirely his fault.

It is odd though how his starts are poor in comparison to his teammates. And his race pace. I still don't quite understand why he was believed to be a future world champion! And he seemed to have a habit of damaging his car/retiring at the first corner. Well, in several races at least.

[1200Datto27]

I don't think that Mark's starts where much worse than Nick's, as once the drivers reaction times are dealt with (releasing the button) then it is all up to the software and the engines performance. I think that the big difference is that if you are qualifying near cars like Renaults, Toyota's and McLarens, then any difficiency in the cars standing start performance is going to be much more obvious compared to going against the likes of Sauber and Jordan.

[BootsOntheSide]

When Nick was near the front of the grid, he didn't lose places off the line, even with the cars you assume to be quicker off the line (which is theoretically down to traction control (not a major dividing factor in team performance) and weight distribution (an area in which Williams appear to have an advantage, based on the circutis they were successful at)).

[Joe Taylor]

Originally Posted by 1200Datto27

I don't think that Mark's starts where much worse than Nick's, as once the drivers reaction times are dealt with (releasing the button) then it is all up to the software and the engines performance. I think that the big difference is that if you are qualifying near cars like Renaults, Toyota's and McLarens, then any difficiency in the cars standing start performance is going to be much more obvious compared to going against the likes of Sauber and Jordan.

I have noticed that whatever car Webber is in seems to be a bad starter (Jag 03 and 04, Wiliams this year), car or driver?

[Nado]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

When Nick was near the front of the grid, he didn't lose places off the line, even with the cars you assume to be quicker off the line (which is theoretically down to traction control (not a major dividing factor in team performance) and weight distribution (an area in which Williams appear to have an advantage, based on the circutis they were successful at)).

The only time I remember Nick qualifying high (and as a Webber fan you probably can why I remember this) was Nurb when he qualified pole and only dropped behind Kimi, in part it was helped by Webber's accident which took quite a few drivers out of the equation. It's a shame we'll never see how good Webber's quali really was, and how things would have panned out.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

I don't think that Mark Webber is by any means a future world champion, but I reckon he's still better than Coulthard is. And the 'Kimi is Ron's favourite' is not much excuse. If you look at the fastest race laps in 2004 between Coulthard and Raikkonen, there is a considerable difference more often than not.

I am a Webber fan, but I don't agree that Webber is better than DC. What I do believe, is Webber has the potential to be better than DC, but I would still rate Coulthard higher.

I chose 3 random races from 2004 Kimi v DC fastest laps:

San Marino GP

K.Raikkonen 1m22.500 (Finished 8th)
D.Coulthard 1m22.951 (Finished 12th)

Italian GP

K.Raikkonen 1m23.365 (Retired lap 13)
D.Coulthard 1m22.889 (Finished 6th)

Japanese GP

K.Raikkonen 1m33.920 (Finished 6th)
D.Coulthard 1m33.917 (Retired lap 38)


So I wouldn't say 'there is a considerable difference more often than not' between their lap times. Feel free to look at all of them if you think I picked out non-random races...

[safc_fan89]

Ok then, if you just take the races in 2004 where McLaren had their revamped car (ie. France onwards), with the exception of Japan, where Raikkonen has always seemed to be average until this season, and Hungary and Italy, where Raikkonen retired early so any times are not worth comparing, you'll find that Raikkonen finished higher up in just about every race, and had by far a faster race lap. The difference in Spa was 1.4 seconds. DC had the upper hand at the start of the season, mainly because he had slightly fewer engine failures than Raikkonen, but once Kimi got his hands on a faster car he was in a different league to DC.

So yes, there is actually a considerable difference. Check the lap times for the races in France, Britain, Germany, Belgium, China, Brazil, USA, Canada, Europe, Malaysia. In these races, there is a substantial difference, and that's over half. Then there are several where Kimi's lap times are a few tenths beter, there is the odd one where DC's are better, and the rest can;t be compared because either retired early on.

I don;t just invent stats, check for yourself.

[SpawnyWhippet]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

I think Red Bull will win a race in 2006.

Only if the McLarens, Renaults, Toyotas and MS fall off.

[SpawnyWhippet]

Originally Posted by alf

there is a very thin line between good and great. which is demonstrated in qualifying.

Disagree. Compare MS to any of his team-mates.

Originally Posted by alf

although as we watch it unravel a tenth of a second sounds much slower than the other guy in reality a tenth of a second is nothing and having a top car will give you that final edge every time.

Disagree again. 10ths of a second cost many $millions to design into an F1 car. If a driver was consistently 10ths of a sec slower than his team-mate, he'd be either out the door or facing severe questions as to why. Many drivers could get a car to 95% of its potential, its the few that make it in F1 who reliably extract 100%.
If, however, you are making the argument about the car carrying more of the competitive advantage than the driver in F1, I tend to agree.

Originally Posted by alf

I race and i have some guys I can beat in the rain, and cant touch them in the dry, in the same model car.

Maybe you should take a look at your tyres and setup?

[pole2pole]

F1 Jumping back into the world of V8...... well I think williams is in very safe hands with cosworth. Setting that aside i think the answer to this one lies with the tyre people. Who ever develops the best tyre will steel the show. Just another thought does anybody know if the ferrari engine used by RBR is the same spec used by the ferrari team

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by Thanh Ha

It's a shame we'll never see how good Webber's quali really was, and how things would have panned out.

From Autosport's December 15 edition

"Webber qualified 3rd despite a heavy fuel load. Fuel corrected, Webber had qualified faster there even faster than the McLarens and Renaults. It was a remarkable effort from a car that wasn't in their league"

[safc_fan89]

The thing is, whenever Webber did well in qualifying, he wasted it in the race.

[billiaml]

It'll definitely be interesting to see how this all plays out. While I don't expect either team to win any races this year, I wouldn't be completely surprised with at least one podium finish.

[senna12]

We will begin to see Adrians' influence when little winglets start sprouting up all over the RB2. You might expect Cosworth to have the stronger engine, but Williams proved with BMW that a strong motor isn't enough. There really are too many changes this season to make any kind of accurate prediction. Williams early, then RBR as the season progresses.