Global Rallycross Championship 2012

[leonidas]

Does anyone know what the official status (if any) of this event is? I presume it is not in any way connected with the FIA or the ASN? I ask because safety precautions and marshalling do not seem to be up to usual standards. Don't think you would be able to run an event like this under the MSA...

I don't have a copy of the Blue Book with me but wasn't there once a ban on any officially registered/licensed competitor taking part in non-MSA/FIA sanctioned events? Just wondering how they get around this if the event has no official recognition...

[HaydenFan]

Originally Posted by leonidas

Does anyone know what the official status (if any) of this event is? I presume it is not in any way connected with the FIA or the ASN? I ask because safety precautions and marshalling do not seem to be up to usual standards. Don't think you would be able to run an event like this under the MSA...

I don't have a copy of the Blue Book with me but wasn't there once a ban on any officially registered/licensed competitor taking part in non-MSA/FIA sanctioned events? Just wondering how they get around this if the event has no official recognition...

Being in the U.S, it would fall under the ACCUS-FIA, but no rally organisation in North America is listed as a member.

http://www.accusfia.us/member_clubs.html

I don't think the FIA is that worried about cracking down on member's running in non-sanctioned series anymore. Because for the most part, anyone competing in Le Mans would have been sanctioned. Or Dakar, or the SCORE desert series (i.e. Baja 1000).

[rallycrossnl]

Photo gallery at ERC24 http://erc24.com/2012/06/grc-x-games/
So, Heikkinen wasn't the first to jump the open gap ramps. Others did clear it before him.

[chunder]

Seriously

I am just thankful that nothing more happened

Two serious injuries is more than elnough

But I do hope questions are asked and very seriously looked at before this kind of racing is allowed to carry on.

[WJM]

Originally Posted by HaydenFan

Being in the U.S, it would fall under the ACCUS-FIA, but no rally organisation in North America is listed as a member.

http://www.accusfia.us/member_clubs.html

I don't think the FIA is that worried about cracking down on member's running in non-sanctioned series anymore. Because for the most part, anyone competing in Le Mans would have been sanctioned. Or Dakar, or the SCORE desert series (i.e. Baja 1000).

Huh??? Le Mans and Dakar have always been FIA sanctioned.
They can't ban you for driving in non-sanctioned series anyway since that goes against EU free trade laws.

[The STIG]

I'm used to British Rallycross, but I thought I'd give this X Games competition a try. Heard about the accidents involving Gronholm and that other unfortunate chap... so that sort of led my interest

Well, first impression : What on earth were the track designers thinking? The track is far too narrow with too many hard obstacles to hit. Too many narrow gateways too.

Secondly. Why is / was there an open jump as part of the circuit? Surely that should have been a table top jump right from the start anyway?

Thirdly... Whilst I like the idea of street racing, I'm not sure Rallycross lends itself to it. The temporary gravel section seems to be easily worn out.

It just seems that the track has been really poorly thought out and then there's too many cars on it. Not sure that this is a good thing for the sport at large either but they seem to have attracted some big names and teams... hmmm...

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by chunder

But I do hope questions are asked and very seriously looked at before this kind of racing is allowed to carry on.

Definately agree with this. Although the dirt jumps have been the scene of several big accidents in the past, none were as severe as the Heikkinen crash. Some serious thinking needs to be done with regards to that jump. At least common sense prevailed during X-Games and it was converted to a table top.

I daresay the Gronholm incident had nothing to do with the jump. Whoever decided that an immovable concrete object should be placed on a corner needs firing though. I see there has been a second press release from the Gronholm camp:

http://www.pressreleasemanager.co.uk...0-EB22060E2575

It still seems pretty vague on details, so I hope Gronholm is OK and we see him back racing soon (not sure if he will have a car to do it in though: was his car smashed beyond repair?).

Having sat down and watched the full coverage last night I actually think its a huge shame that the event was overshadowed by the Heikkinen and Gronholm incidents as, in terms of the racing, I personally thought it was the best event of the 2012 GRC thus far. I agree the course was too narrow in places (especially the first corner and the hairpin), but it was great to see the cars hitting dirt and nice to see a race without a joker again.

Checking out the video of the first run of the A final...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brlc1Ho9TLA

...and the second jump start...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8osV5nbtHc

...you can see Fousts car seemed to sustain damage in the first run. I assume they weren't allowed to rectify that between start attempts, so I wonder if that was the source of his problem in the third running of the final. The video on You Tube doesn't show it, but Deegans reaction after the second (jump) start reminds me why I haven't taken to him: effing and blinding at the race officials when you clearly jumped the start is pretty stupid.

Felt really sorry for Pastrana. The Dart actually looked pretty quick, but he got stuffed into the wall through no fault of his own. Not entirely convinced Andy Scott was blameless (one of the camera angles seems to show him braking, lifting off the brakes and seemingly nosing Pastrana straight into the wall?). Would like to hear more on that if it comes out in time. Full credit to Block as well, didn't realise how many laps he did with a flat until last night. Would have been interesting to see if he could have stuck with Loeb without the puncture (I don't think he would have threatened him, just would have been an interesting gauge of his pace).

[Paradise City]

Good rallycross needs wide a track, plenty of gravel but with jumping off of ramps, it's hard to recognise rallycross with these events. It seems more like Pastrana's discipline than Gronholm's, even if it's the rally guys doing the winning.

The safety precautions looked horrible, Heikkinen's accident looked grisly and MG was too easily hurt. They need to get a good fat book of tough safety regulations from the FIA for me to watch this in good heart.

[The STIG]

Originally Posted by tbtstt

It still seems pretty vague on details, so I hope Gronholm is OK and we see him back racing soon (not sure if he will have a car to do it in though: was his car smashed beyond repair?).

The roof was cut off in the rescue attempt, so it's highly unlikely that that car will be racing anywhere anymore.

[NaBUru38]

Except for the red flags, I liked the races.

The track is in general terms fine. I'd like a longer straight into the jump, which sould be wider too. Keeping the current location, they could try an 8-figure course with the jump in the crossover section.

I loved the dirt bump between turns 3 and 4, it was tricky to find a lane into the turn 4. Jumps like that one should be added to more courses.

Originally Posted by tbtstt

Deegans reaction after the second (jump) start reminds me why I haven't taken to him: effing and blinding at the race officials when you clearly jumped the start is pretty stupid.

I think exactly the same. When drivers makes mistakes, they should accept the penalties.

[chasing cars]

Like others I hope something is done to ensure theres no repeat of what happened during the X-Games, but I cant see the GRC changing its direction. For its sins it decided to go for the youth market and make rallycross an extreme sport in the US, so things like the ridiculous gap jump are necessary for it to live up to its billing. Rather sadly the X-Games facebook site even used Toomas' crash to prove to doubters that "rallycross" is an extreme sport.

So either the GRC needs and should change its marketing policy and get back to rallycross as it should be or carry on as it is and risk further injury and heaven knows what else just for the sake of trying to make quick money. If the latter happens as I rather suspect it will then I hope the real rallycross drivers turn their back on the series and return to Europe with their bodies still intact and get back to proper racing.

Anyone whos interested some of the drivers gave their opinion on the gap jump removal, again i think Foust speaks well, Pastrana and Mirra not so.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=s3T4nzD45Y8

The one thing that they mostly seem to agree on is the racing is better without the jump and surely thats what it should be all about?

[I Rosputnik]

Interesting to see the different views, but I think you could still maintain the "extreme" image without having to rely on the gap jump.

You could have a pool of water to drive though, a copy of Colin's Crest from Sweden, have snow and ice at Aspen (if they race there), banked corners, etc...

[rallycrossnl]

Look at the onboards, those tell all.
Xgames GRC was a computergame in real life. Nothing to do with car racing, rallycross of whatever, a race game advert in the planning, building and production of it all.


BTW... is that marshall with the beard 'wild' Bill Baldwin?

He was in Top Gear magazine July 2012
http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoram...183201321.html

[leonidas]

Originally Posted by WJM

Huh??? Le Mans and Dakar have always been FIA sanctioned.
They can't ban you for driving in non-sanctioned series anyway since that goes against EU free trade laws.

There was certainly a restriction on non-sanctioned events in the past - or at least there was in the UK. I'm pretty sure there was something in the FIA code too. This was designed to prevent people organising events just like this one - events created to make money by cutting safety standards and causing spectacular accidents.

You may be right about EU competition laws but I don't think they prevent competitors freely agreeing to take part in just one organiser's events - that used to be effectively what you were doing when you took out a British RAC competition licence. Plus is a GLOBAL championship covered by EU regulations?

I've spent a lot of time in the States and enjoy a lot of their motorsport. The problem is that there are some promoters (see Indycar/Nascar) whose love of money is greater than their concern for competitor safety. Sadly the organisers of the Global (really US) rallycross (really stunt driving) championship seem to fit into the same category.

[WJM]

Originally Posted by leonidas

There was certainly a restriction on non-sanctioned events in the past - or at least there was in the UK. I'm pretty sure there was something in the FIA code too. This was designed to prevent people organising events just like this one - events created to make money by cutting safety standards and causing spectacular accidents.

Officially the restriction ended with the treaty of Maastricht in 1992 (or was it 1993). The FIA had lots of problems with this, remember also when they gave Bernie all the promotor rights to every FIA championship, which was later deemed illigal? So the restriction has been effectively lifted since around this century, +- 10 years or so.

By the way, that this restriction goes both ways. Before, the FIA could refuse to acknowledge your races, thereby forbidding anybody from associating with you. Now, the FIA has to accept to sanction everybody that makes a proper request for it.

You may be right about EU competition laws but I don't think they prevent competitors freely agreeing to take part in just one organiser's events - that used to be effectively what you were doing when you took out a British RAC competition licence. Plus is a GLOBAL championship covered by EU regulations?

Well, yes, the GRC is of course not covered under EU nor FIA regulations since it's a strictly American national business this year. If they truely go global next year they would have to apply to the FIA and therefore apply the FIA safety regulations.

I've spent a lot of time in the States and enjoy a lot of their motorsport. The problem is that there are some promoters (see Indycar/Nascar) whose love of money is greater than their concern for competitor safety. Sadly the organisers of the Global (really US) rallycross (really stunt driving) championship seem to fit into the same category.

That's a bit harsh in my opinion. Especially the last 10+ years Indycar and Nascar have made a lot of strides in safety. It's just that they also push the limits a lot further than in Europe.
The best competitor safety is still to not drive if you think it's dangerous.

[MJones94]

Has anyone seen the Drive: Shakedown debate on the XGames+Rallycross. I do not have access to the URL at this moment, but the video title is something along the lines of: 'X Games rallycross is ruining racing - Shakedown Debate'.

I just saw the X Games race where Loeb thrashed everyone, and I wasn't really impressed. As has been mentioned before, the track was much too narrow for starters. Secondly, I have the feeling that the X Games tag is only a one off for big support, then everyone will forget about rallycross after that. I also get the feeling that the fans are only interested in the 'show' of Rallycross, ie. the courses, driver personas, the cars, the rock n' roll nature. Call me old fashioned, but I'm not much of a fan. Having said that, I do enjoy playing Rallycross on Dirt 3, yet it is just not the same.

[I Rosputnik]

Here's the Speedhunters report.

Scary to hear that the ambulance was slow to come...

If they want it to feel like a video game them get Codemasters to design a track around LA. Seriously, all the X Games or GRC promoters need to do is look at the tracks that are in Dirt 3 and make them in real life because I think they would work better then the track they had this year.

Plus I was also horrified at how they were using Toopi's crash as a way of marketing to prove it was extreme...

[leonidas]

Originally Posted by WJM

Especially the last 10+ years Indycar and Nascar have made a lot of strides in safety. It's just that they also push the limits a lot further than in Europe.
The best competitor safety is still to not drive if you think it's dangerous.

At one level I would agree: there have been improvements but only after a large number of fatalities (Krosnoff, Nemechek, Brayton, Moore, Petty, Roper, Irwin, Rodriguez, Earnhardt, Dana, Renna, Wheldon - all since the mid-1990s - and those are just the ones I can remember). There are still Indycars on superspeedways because it brings in the punters - the fact it is lethal is ignored...

Competitors are responsible for their own safety and their decision to race but let's face it people sometimes have to be protected from themselves. For example, now we all recognise F1 safety in the 1970s was very poor but drivers continued to race what were known to be dangerous circuits and dangerous cars - even Jackie Stewart who did so much to make all motorsport safer. The competitive spirit kicks in and the dangers are forgotten in the moment of competition.

You might say 'its up to them' but my point is that a tragedy caused by recklessness in something called rallycross will affect us all, even if it has nothing to do with the FIA sport that we recognise. Quite apart from the possible human cost it damages the reputation of motorsport and our branch of it.

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by The STIG

The roof was cut off in the rescue attempt, so it's highly unlikely that that car will be racing anywhere anymore.

Just looked through the sequence of photos in the Speedhunter article that I Rosputnik posted. I misunderstood the severity of the "cut him out" mentioned in the earlier news articles as I thought it was just some bodywork that was removed, not the whole roof.

The vagueness of the press releases with regards to Gronholm still concerns me.

Originally Posted by chasing cars

Anyone whos interested some of the drivers gave their opinion on the gap jump removal, again i think Foust speaks well, Pastrana and Mirra not so.

Agreed. Without meaning to brown nose too much, but Foust does seems like he has his head screwed on right. I guess drivers like Pastrana and Mirra come from a pure "X-Games" background, so its all about the show for them.

Originally Posted by rallycrossnl

BTW... is that marshall with the beard 'wild' Bill Baldwin?

Yeah, I'm sure its him. Pretty sure I recall the commentator referring to him at one point during the full coverage.

Originally Posted by MJones94

Secondly, I have the feeling that the X Games tag is only a one off for big support, then everyone will forget about rallycross after that.

Not sure I'd agree with the "one off" use of the X-Games tag. Rally has been at X-Games in one form or another for 6 years now and this is the third year that a rallycross based event has been at X-Games. I thought there was a huge improvement in the event last year and, in some respects, there were continued improvements this year.

The course design (and incidents that have occured as a result) has really let it down (in my opinion). Although I think the overall track layout was better, the narrowness of the twisty portion of the circuit really limited the overtaking opportunities.

I hope USrallycross posts here again at some point as I would like to here his view "from the inside" (on the assumption he is able to air his views!).

[Matt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aD0ktBTfqE

Run this course, with less sharp hairpins on the floor.

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by Matt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aD0ktBTfqE

Run this course, with less sharp hairpins on the floor.

That course, with less sharp hairpins, would surely just be this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yty1YyUs3GI

...without a jump?

I personally think they are better off staying out of the stadium as the above course wasn't a patch on the outside courses either this year or last year (in my opinion anyway).

[rallycrossnl]

Pastrana is a poor loser. He went all crying girly over what happened.

"Amazing. I had the inside lane on the start, got to my standard braking spot and I was starting to turn in and picked up 30 mile-per-hour. The guy behind me (Andy Scott) forgot to brake. Just incredible,” explained a frustrated Pastrana. "I started inside, pole. We had a great start and I was clear of everyone heading into Turn 1 and got punted. The next thing you know I'm in the wall and my heat race is over."

Well mister Pastrana, lesson one in rallycross. After a start, when you are the first one in the first corner, the back of your vehicle will be an braking aid for the car behind you. Always was, always is, always will be. (although this is a no-contact sport) He should have watched some vids of the .eu races. Then he would have known.

I read that not GRC but ESPN did hinder Pastrana to run in his teammates car. Under GRC rules this is possible, under ESPN XGames rules not it seems. I think that is a bit silly of ESPN, kicking out the biggest name of the field. The person who challenged Loeb. After losing Gronholm already...

Source: http://www.srtmotorsports.com/news/p...s-angeles.html

“Global RallyCross (GRC) rules state that in extreme circumstances a driver can be replaced,” said Pastrana 199 Racing team manager Blair Stopnik. “So we weren’t replacing Travis’ car, we were replacing Bryce as a driver. We got that cleared through GRC; they approved. As soon as ESPN found out about it, (ESPN) said that they were running (the race) under their rules, and they don’t allow it. ESPN shut it down.”

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by leonidas

I've spent a lot of time in the States and enjoy a lot of their motorsport. The problem is that there are some promoters (see Indycar/Nascar) whose love of money is greater than their concern for competitor safety. Sadly the organisers of the Global (really US) rallycross (really stunt driving) championship seem to fit into the same category.

Certainly safety in American motorsport has had it's failings, like any place around the world.

But I have also been to tracks around the world and in many cases there are better, safer tracks here than in other countries. Just a rough generalization, but it isn't that bad.

The whole X games thing, I am certain you could find ways to make it safer, but there is always risk anytime you get people airborne.

[HaydenFan]

Originally Posted by tbtstt

Agreed. Without meaning to brown nose too much, but Foust does seems like he has his head screwed on right. I guess drivers like Pastrana and Mirra come from a pure "X-Games" background, so its all about the show for them.

Well, simply looks at where they come from. Foust is a rally racer. No background in other X-Games events. Mirra, Deegan, Pastrana grew up doing stunts and competitions that make that X-Games rallycross circuit seem almost normal. And from what I can see, from a marketing department, those who run the series seem to be the same one's associated with other X-Games style competitions, rather than from a rally/rallycross background.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by tbtstt

That course, with less sharp hairpins, would surely just be this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yty1YyUs3GI

...without a jump?

I personally think they are better off staying out of the stadium as the above course wasn't a patch on the outside courses either this year or last year (in my opinion anyway).

This one from DiRT 3 is completely do-able as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-dNxnpN4YY